Bill Schroer Goes On The Record About AANR

| December 30, 2014 | 148 Comments

Bill Schroer Goes on The Record About Being Fired By AANR

For those of you who are just now finding out about this issue, you may want to read our first two articles about AANR and Bill: Beverly B. Price president of AANR Fired Bill Schroer – WTF?!?! and AANR Nudist Clubs Ratings And Update On The Firing Of Bill Schroer.

For those who might not know, Bill was recruited by AANR. He went through the interview process and then was hired by the American Association For Nude Recreation – AANR. This was during the previous administration when Susan Weaver was president of AANR. He was fired October 15 by AANR’s new president, Beverly Price.

I asked Bill how he felt about being approached and subsequently hired, last May, as their new executive director.

His response was as follows:

“I considered the job a privilege. I have been involved with nude recreation for many years and was truly honored to be given such a wonderful opportunity. I would also like to mention that I enjoyed working with the AANR staff who are a wonderful and dedicated group of people.”

Ever since the news came out about AANR firing Bill Schroer, there has been endless speculation and chatter about what happened. There have also been a lot of personal attacks and claims about Bill that just did not seem to add up. So naturally, I was very happy when Bill agreed to have a sit down with me and explain once and for all his perspective about what happened. In this article I will do my very best to explain the main issues and correct any misconceptions that I have been able to confirm based on my conversation with Bill, as well as other sources from within AANR (many of whom who were unwilling to be named or go on the record).

So what really happened? Let’s begin from the day Bill’s contract with AANR was terminated.

Bill Schroer Goes On The Record About AANR YNA

Bill Schroer Goes On The Record About AANR

 

On October 15 at 8:00 in the morning, Bill was sitting by his computer in his office when newly elected president of AANR, Beverly Price, walked into the room accompanied by Julie Erlenmeyer, who is on the Board of AANR Florida. (I assume that Beverly brought Julie in as a witness and because she works in Human Resources at a local theme park.)

Beverly turned to Bill and simply said that AANR decided to terminate his employment contract – and that was that. Bill, quite shocked by her statement, did not put up a fight nor argue. He simply acknowledged it, gathered his belongings, said goodbye to the staff and walked out.

Since Bill accepted what she said without any argument, I asked him to explain why. Here is what he said:

“I think it’s important to note that one reason I accepted this without resistance was that I believed, at the time, Beverly Price had had a secret meeting with the Board and had the approval of the board to terminate me. It was not until later I learned the board had not been informed. I may have reacted differently had I known then what I know now.”

Since, based on the AANR bylaws, only the board could terminate the ED’s contract, I tried to figure out why Beverly acted on her own, clearly in breach of AANR’s own rules. Since Bill had no information to provide, I had to look elsewhere to find the answer.

After some conversations with people within / close to AANR, I began to get the feeling that Beverly, for whatever reason, simply decided that she no longer wanted him there. That said, the Board had a scheduled meeting only a month away. Why not wait and present her case to the board? I simply could not understand the rush to action, especially since that action was in clear violation of AANR’s own bylaws?

One Trustee said (off the record) that they thought Beverly fired Bill early because she wouldn’t have had the votes if she waited for the meeting. Not only did he feel that she would not have been able to get the motion passed, he went on to say that based on his understanding / feeling, Beverly didn’t want to have to justify her actions to the board with Bill in the room.

* Bill, however refused to speculate.

Perhaps realizing that she had overstepped her boundaries, Beverly brought up the vote on terminating Bill’s contract five days later in an emergency telephone meeting with the Board (the motion to terminate passed 10 to 4).

This is a sign that about 30% did not agree with her action and were brave enough to cast their vote in a manner that reflected their true feelings.

But this still leaves many questions unanswered. The biggest one of those questions being why. This is where all the rumors come into play.

A list of the most mentioned, speculated and gossiped about reasons that I had come across were:

– Bill was advocating to include swinger lifestyle clubs into the AANR nudist club network.
– Bill was treating his staff harshly, working them long past their normal work hours and not willing to pay overtime.
– Bill had misused AANR funds and racked-up unexplainable expenditures.
– Bill had decided on his own to get rid of AANR’s lawyer and get a new one.
– Bill was forcing AANR to restructure the organization based on the Carver model which is used by many other non-profit corporations.
– Bill was trying to bypass the chain of command in order to push through his own personal agenda.
I asked Bill point blank about these issues.

Rumor #1: The AANR Rating System

Bill explained that he was working on a rating system similar to the one that was put in place by the Motion Picture Association of America. His concept was to allow certain clubs that are CURRENTLY part of AANR to retain their AANR charter under this new rating system. The rating system would have addressed the fact some existing AANR clubs were operating outside the strict guidelines of the AANR system and complaints were being directed to him at the AANR office.

Some clubs felt they had to engage in more adult theme activities on Saturday nights to attract an audience. He stated that he never intended it to go beyond that and never advocated to include new sexually-oriented swinger clubs.

As we were talking, Bill noted an important fact. The term “adult activities” is somewhat ambiguous. So he explained that years ago, there were clubs that did not allow couples to dance together in the nude as that was considered too sexual / “adult.”

Today, most clubs host dances. While most people would agree that dancing with a loved one is not a problem, some clubs don’t even agree on that. Bill believed a rating system would allow some flexibility within the AANR system so “one size didn’t need to fit all.”

So what kinds of activities would be sanctioned by this new rating system? He explained that many would agree that “leather and lace” parties can, and most often do, have a sexual or adult connotation.

Under the new rating, the clubs that throw those kind of parties or that sell / allow the consumption of alcohol would fall under some form of higher rating classification (as in – rated “R” vs “PG-13”).

He went on to stress the fact that all he was doing was putting recommendations together for the board to consider. He made a point to say, on numerous occasions during our discussion, that he did not have the power nor desire to force any of his recommendations on AANR without the Board’s approval first.

Bill says that he was given no direction. Therefore he was doing what he thought and felt needed to be done. He says he kept all the executives and staff informed about his daily tasks and never went behind anyone’s back or tried to exceed the powers granted to him by the AANR board. He was never in breach of his employment contract.

He was never cautioned that he may not be spending his time effectively and he was never told that what he was doing was wrong.

Furthermore, his rating recommendation was presented, in its entirety, during the annual AANR meeting in August. While I was not present at the meetings, I did get emails from AANR people shortly after the annual meeting and all the feedback I heard was positive.

So, based on all the digging around, I am pretty certain that on a personal level, I can strike that item off the list of why AANR terminated his contract.

Rumor #2: Issues with the AANR staff

For those who might not be aware, AANR has employees that are paid. Some are on an hourly basis while others receive a yearly salary. Bill explained that he never told nor demanded anyone to work overtime. He would discuss with the staff whether they were willing to put in overtime or not. It was largely the staff person’s call.

No one was forced to put in overtime on a consistent basis and especially not for free. There was also a rumor that he was forcing employees to become exempt employees (as in not eligible for overtime pay). Again, Bill explained, that was an inaccurate portrayal of what happened.

There were some employees who were managers or directors who legitimately are “exempt” from being paid overtime (due to their employment contract and salary arrangement). In his capacity as the ED, he was clarifying and communicating the correct rules with selected members of the staff.

He went on to say that he enjoyed working with the staff and was pretty sure that the feeling was mutual. When he was fired, most expressed shock and sadness. One of the people he worked with even reached out to him recently to express the fact that he is missed.

*As a side note… Bill was fired 2 days before his birthday. The staff was actually planning a surprise office party and cake to mark the occasion. That does not give me the impression of a tyrannical slave driver boss who is hated by his subordinates.

So I think it is safe to say that while sometimes things do happen in a work setting and while people do bump heads in any workplace, in my opinion this was more than likely not the reason Bill was fired from AANR.

Rumor #3: Bill had misused AANR funds and racked up unexplainable expenditures

I heard this reason being talked about in a few places and from a number of people. When asked, Bill said that he is unaware of any such actual claims. The only thing he could think of was his meeting with some Florida free beach people and the Bare Necessities Cruise team during a trip to Haulover Beach.

Bill, a long time NAC and TNS activist, has made friends in both organizations. While employed by AANR, he felt it was time to bridge the divide and try to heal some of the old wounds.

As such, he met with a number of people from the Free Beaches Movement in Florida and the Bare Necessities Cruise team. He wanted to talk about having a more cooperative relationship with all groups that share the same basic ideals.

After the meeting, he took them out to dinner. He submitted the bill for that dinner as an expense, but also reiterated that if Beverly had an issue with reimbursing him, he would be willing to pay for the dinner from his own pocket.

In the business world, making connections and building strong relationships is an integral part of the day to day. Buying a client lunch or taking them out to dinner is part of the costs of doing business.

Since this was the only item as far as I was able to find out, I seriously doubt that this would be grounds for termination and thus I will scratch that off the list.

Rumor #4: Bill was meeting clubs that were removed from AANR due to sexual activities with the purpose of reinstating their AANR charter.

I asked bill flat out if he met with clubs like Caliente and Paradise Lakes in his official capacity as the AANR executive director. And if so, what were the goals and reasons for doing so?

Bill confirmed that he did visit both Caliente and Paradise Lakes and added a third resort to that list – Gulf Coast Resort. He said that the purpose was part of an orientation to clubs which used to be part of the AANR nudist club network. He was hoping to better understand what their behavior policies are and said that he absolutely was not encouraging them to return.

As part of the research he was doing on the rating system, he wanted to understand how much distance there was between a place like Paradise Lakes (where the homeowners association is still part of AANR) and the formal AANR guidelines. That was his only purpose for visiting those clubs.

Sounds like a good and plausible reason. Since I was unable to find any information that would indicate otherwise, as far as I am concerned, I can scratch that reason off the list.

Rumor #5: Bill had decided on his own to get rid of AANR’s lawyer and get a new one.

When confronted with this question Bill said that was not inaccurate. Bill said that in consultation with the Beverly Price, he felt that AANR did in fact need a new attorney. Beverly Price actually knew of his recommendation and concurred with his assessment.

Bill felt that it was a major issue that their current Indiana-based attorney, Jawn Bauer, was not licensed to practice in Florida. Though AANR is a national organization, the 13 member staff is in Florida. Since most of the legal questions pertained to employment, it would require an understanding of Florida labor law which Jawn Bauer simply did not have.

Bill went on to explain that as far as he is aware, there was never any problem with Bauer and none of this should have been a surprise or an issue with the board as Price was fully aware of every step he took.

Since Beverly Price knew what was going on, this is really a non-issue in my opinion. Therefore, I will scratch it off the list.

Rumor #6: Bill was forcing AANR to restructure based on the Carver model

Bill felt that the current structure of AANR was too cumbersome. The organization itself was structured in a way that making changes, course corrections, decisions and so forth was an extremely difficult and lengthy process. He felt that it would make things clearer, and the decision making process and implementation far easier by converting to the Carver model.

The Carver model is a system for organizational governance. It is a popular model with many major non-profit organizations and many school boards, to which Bill compared AANR. Under the Carver model, the policy governance is clearly defined. It guides appropriate relationships between an organization’s owners, its board of directors, and its chief executive.

Again, Bill pointed out that this move would only happen if the board agreed with his assessment. While Bill himself is a Carver trained professional, he did not want there to be even the appearance of him being biased. Therefore he researched and found a local Carver professional that he recommended AANR speak to.

Since, as far as I can tell, he did not try to force this on AANR, I think it is safe to say that I will scratch it off the list of reasons why Bill was let go.

Rumor #7: Bill was trying to bypass the chain of command in order to push through his own personal agenda, such as the new AANR guide he wanted to publish

Bill immediately dismissed that accusation. He reiterated that not once had he gone behind anyone’s back. He kept everyone up to date on every aspect of his doings. He had never tried to push through anything and reiterated the fact that all he was allowed to do, based on the terms and conditions of his employment, was to make recommendations to the board. If the board decided to accept or reject his recommendations, that was up to them to decide.

He was just doing what he was hired to do: identify weaknesses and address them.

But what about the new AANR club guide that the board had voted not to pursue – why pursue it anyway?

Bill explained that no one, including the board, ever said anything about not publishing a new AANR club guide. Apparently, they knew he was looking at it and he heard there were concerns about the cost. Therefore he had Martha Young and Ashley Beahan (two of the AANR staff) work on lining up advertisers to make sure that AANR would have enough finances in place.

He had told Martha that his plan was for the guide to be revenue neutral (as in – funding itself and would not cost AANR any money to produce). He explained that it was part of the platform for getting a green light on producing the guide.

There were no official communications from the board about going forward or not going forward. He said that he had received almost no direction from them. His plan was to formally propose to take on the guide at the November board meeting by which time he would have the financial pro forma, the list of advertisers, the schedule for production, etc.

* As a side note… Apparently there was a rumor that Bill was pushing ahead with a rating system in the guide even though the rating system was not approved. In fact, Bill did consider putting the ratings into the club questionnaire (which must go out a year in advance of the Guide being published).

He specifically asked VP of the Board, Sharon McLeod, if she thought it would be acceptable to put the rating system in the questionnaire. There would always be the option of not using the information if the rating system was turned down by the board.

Sharon did not think it was a good idea to put the rating questions in the Guide questionnaire. He acknowledged her opinion and advised Martha Young, editor of the guide not to include it in the Guide questionnaire. Bill indicated that he and Martha were clear on that direction and that was the end of it.

Bill concluded with a thought about the need for clear ongoing communications. “I own some of this…. I’ve always thought I was being open about what I was doing… maybe I wasn’t being heard or the pace I move at was not comfortable for the board. I should have sent more radar signals to verify I was being heard and understood and pushed for more affirmation of direction. Lessons learned.”

Since he never tried to exceed his powers (as far as I can tell), I can safely conclude that this, too, in my opinion, is a non-issue and therefore I will scratch it off the list.

Conclusions about AANR and Bill

This was quite a big undertaking and getting all the information took a lot of time and energy. But now that I have gone through the main issues (that I am aware of) with members, supporters and / or officials of AANR as well as after speaking with Bill directly, I can safely say that I have no clue as to what lead to the terminations of Bill’s employment contract.

What I can say is that I have heard some really nasty accusations after the fact about what Bill was doing and some even nastier ones about him as a person. While people tend to pass judgment before hearing the facts, I find such bully-like behavior to be quite off putting and downright mean!

Now, for full disclosure, I have never met Bill personally, but I have been in communication with him for the last few years. Throughout that time, he has never, not once, given me any reason to second-guess his morals, ethics or actions. He has always been straightforward and direct – regardless of whether we agreed or not. He was always willing to give his honest opinion which indicates, to me at least, that he is not the kind of person that would conspire, gossip or go behind anyone’s back (which is more than I can say for some).

Attacking someone’s character when you have no real proof is bad, perhaps even libelous. Attacking him publicly online, making nasty remarks and so forth is even worse. Looking at it through Bill’s eyes, I understand why he wanted his side of the story to be heard. Setting the record straight is important, especially with regards to any future employment opportunities.

In today’s world, employers tend to conduct online searches before hiring people and nobody would want these innuendos on his or her record.

By making unfounded accusations in public, people endanger his ability to move on with his life. This should serve as a notice to everyone – think before you rant and if you were wrong, make sure to say so in the most public way possible! What’s fair is fair.

My Opinion: Afterthoughts about AANR

While I am perceived by many as being anti-AANR, I am not. I have taken many hits from people about my words on this issue. People said that I have no right to express my opinion because I am no longer an AANR member. Others claimed that I am just out to close them down. Some went so far as to call me out for not being a team player and not caring about the repercussions of what I am posting.

To all those who made such claims, let me say this… if I did not care I would not have spent so many hours researching this issue. I would not have put myself in the direct line of fire if I did not care. Like it or not, the nudie world is small. What YNA does is not directly related to anyone else but for people to think that it has no effect is ludicrous. The same goes for AANR. If they do something that we perceive as damaging to the greater good, it is our responsibility to make our voices heard. The flip side is that if AANR does something we support and agree with, then we will give them all the credit.

Like it or not, YNA does not hide, lie or deflect responsibility.

Though I feel there are hardly notable achievements that were made by AANR (as far as I know) in the last few years, I am looking forward to a time when that statement is no longer true.

My experience with AANR has honestly been a frustrating one. They have made false statements, took credit for things that they were not involved in, attacked both me and Felicity personally and have policies in place that I could never support.

That said, perhaps this issue will serve as an eye opener and call to action. It is nice to have committees and board meetings. But I think it is safe to say that it is also time for action. It seems apparent to me that AANR is only around today because certain clubs force their members to be AANR members. If AANR cannot survive without the forced support of a large number of its members, many are arguing that perhaps there is not enough public support to justify their existence.

In closing, I just wanted to make one more point. When I say AANR, I am only talking about the AANR national organization. For those who don’t know, AANR National is the umbrella, and the regions are all independent corporations. On the regional level, I am 110% supportive. National is different, and that is who is collecting and spending most of the money that the local clubs are generating.

Please do comment below. If I have made any errors or if you think I missed anything then I NEED TO KNOW! The truth, as they say, will set you free.

This article was written by Jordan Blum for Young Naturists and Young Nudists America – YNA.

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Category: Naked News, Nudist Organizations

About the Author ()

Jordan Blum is a lifelong nudie and co-founder of Young Naturists America.
  • StuffedTiger

    richard Mason

    Typo: 2015

  • richard Mason

    YvonneGibson nudiarist richard Mason

    Back in the 1980s when I first got involved with nude recreation, the landed clubs were very protective of their known guests. Single men were not admitted unless a guest of a member.  New men in a place were watched very carefully. Regulars were on the look out for cameras and children were kept under close watch.

    If a person violated any of the serious rules and was asked to leave, the ASA office was notified and a Alert was faxed to other clubs in the area.

    The “fear of loss” was a built-in mechanism for landed resorts and for a very good reason. Government was the enemy.

    Things have change a little, 

    I was going through old boxes of papers yesterday and came across the 1992 effort we were involved in, in opposing the Akron, OH ant-nudity ordinance.

    Also, found the 1995 Trippet Grille v Akron case whereas the Akron ordinance was tossed out for being overbroard. 

    If you are in Ohio, you should have a copy of the  Tripplet Grille case in your file.   A very favorable to mere nudity decision.

    NAC can provide you with a copy.

    What I am recommending is the importance of local data bases. You never know when you need them and who  will be your biggest supporter.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason

    It is good to have these groups.

    Thank you for forming a group.

    However, they should help support  groups like NAC that will be the only national organization they could call if they get into trouble with legislation or wrongful applications of state and local laws.

    Back in the 1990s, Lee Baxandall requested we help defeat an anti-nudity effort by the state legislature and  I know that I worked with TNS & NAC in our approached to that  issue.  There was no group there that could stand up to the fight. There were individuals, but a few were in the closet so TNS  NAC and SFFB became the face of opposition.

    We always use the success of Haulover Beach on public lands as our argument on Naturist Rights.

    Richard

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason I know that I can start my own group, which I have done already, and have 25 members so far.  There is another group here in central Ohio which has no affiliation but they meet for parties during the winter and play volleyball and visit clubs during the summer. There are many unaffiliated groups like this across the US. It’s up to the national organizations to draw them in, not the opposite. When membership costs are too high and communication is too low, then people simply won’t join no matter what the cause.

  • richard Mason

    YvonneGibson richard Mason nudiarist

    If we can be of assistance to you  in your efforts. I would expect you to contact me at: 

    richardm09@comcast.net or phone me at 305 620 7090.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    For those interested in Nude Recreation be aware of the following:

    B.E.A.C.H.E.S Foundation is holding a Unity Summit in Miami Beach on February 11, 2014.  If you want to see real progressive visions, plans and action for our movement, check it out at http://www.beachesfoundation.org/unite.
    You’ll be able to view the U.N.I.T.E. concept vision, the invitation, meeting schedule, etc.

  • richard Mason

    The nudist/naturist cause needs members to ensure the future of the “cause.”

    Once you understand it as a CAUSE, it gets easier to move forward.

    If a person wants to do something larger than just being themselves, and takes on the responsibility of the cause, then things get easier because you only have to focus on yours and your group’s self interest.

    You do not need anyones permission to start your own non-landed naturist group. You don’t need to belong to any national association or be anointed by anyone. There is no nudist POPE or Supreme Leader.

    We are our own leaders. You become the person you were waiting for.

    I’m not preaching. Just trying to be inspiring.

    Once you establish that group there are several issues that will pop-up that have to do with the any association.. Most are opportunities and the whole naturist experience becomes fun again, because it is really a social group with common interests.

    You only need email addresses, today to manage a group. Instead of dues, ask for donations at each function. 

    You will learn ( I think you already know) that you gain members to your group based on keeping the confidence and at the same time doing things that create positive images of nude creation.

    There are a lot of resources available in each groups area of interest if the group is  to become relevant. Raising money for community needs groups help give purpose. We donated to a Pelican Bird Hospital locally Some donate to a veterans home. Each good cause helps give naturists equal standing in the community.

    Some naturists like to travel. A good source of information is N Magazine by the Naturist Society.You can get your group listed in N Magazine. Offer TNS memberships.

    Once you have an organized group you get respected and group discounts become easier to obtain.

    I don’t know what state you are located in, but I am willing to bet that we have at least 50 people from that state on our email newsletter database. We have 1300 people listed on our Meet-up Groups Clothing-option Social Club. We have members living in over 20 states. They would learn about your group.

    You can even get your events and existence in our email newsletter.

    Richard

  • YvonneGibson

    richard Mason YvonneGibson nudiarist Thank You Richard for the information. As the saying goes a little to late for me and my effort or time. I have decided that moving forward I will no longer be a member of either the FCN and or AANR. I believe that the focus will be more rewarding as a collective working towards giving our members what they need in order to help them enjoy the life style of “Living Life Clohthing Free”

    Money I know will be well spent elsewhere. 

    I cannot justify throwing good money towards a membership where you do not get any value add.

    Yvonne

  • richard Mason

    The world of information has shifted to the internet. The digital world requires aps for communication.

    With the internet, google will position your name to come up first  if you pay them.

    All nudist and naturist groups and associations have to  either catch up or keep up and that is the challenge.

    That is why each group needs a strategic plan written out.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    I don’t believe I stated that the clubs received any portion of the dues collected for AANR. It is the Regions that I believe get a portion of the dues.

    Operating a landed facility must be both because of a love for nude recreation and a major responsibility.

    We mentor a public beach that has over 1.5 million visitors annually. We get no money from the government and 98% of the beach visitors do not have a clue about card carrying nude recreation and the  associations involved. We try to educate them without a budget.

    We do print a 20 page beach Guide that is available for free on the beach in dispensers. (70,000 have been printed) We also operate a BEach Ambassador Program on the beach.

    We have an email newsletter that goes out monthly to  over 4000 subscribers. It is free and membership is not required.

    You can sign up at: http://www.sffb.com

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    AANR has started an Affinity Program for its members. This program offers discounts at hundreds of locations just like AARP and the American Legion. Check into  that.

    Today, I received an email from Ralph Collinson, President of AANR on activities of the Florida Legislature. If you live in Florida, this region is protecting nude recreation and providing protections that are well worth the membership fee.

    So. Fl. Free Beaches/Florida Naturist Association has been proactive in the Florida Legislature for 28 years as well as donating funds to the political campaigns both local and state-wide. We have had access to the highest officials in Florida Government.

    Recently we met with the head of Visit Florida along with AANR-Florida and BEACHES Foundation. Goal. To get the state of Florida to promote nude recreation in Florida. We were successful and that process is in progress.

    Our Goal & Intent: If the state of Florida is promoting naturist resorts and beaches then nude recreation is an acceptable form of recreation and just another option.

    President Franklin Roosevelt establish the Four Freedoms. One of those Freedoms was the Freedom from Fear. 

    We believe we are entitled to that Freedom and we are going to hold government, its elected officials and employees accountable for protecting us from that FEAR.

    We started this effort in 1991. Persistence to a written strategy.

    Richard Mason
    Pres.
    SFFB/FNA

  • richard Mason

    YvonneGibson nudiarist richard Mason

    I would suggest that you contact Carolyn Hawkins
    Phone: 1 800 TRY-NUDE, ext. 226

    or write her at:

    pubaffairs@aanr.com

    Richard

  • YvonneGibson

    nudiarist YvonneGibson richard Mason I see where you are coming from with the club that benefited. I am sure most do not. 

    I agree that Tom Mulhall, his wife and members are very effective in what they do. Much respect there!

    As for being an affiliate club, lets for a moment said you did and honored your obligations of that $1000.00. In turn you were ignored and or not even worth any mention of existence. How would you react and or feel?

    In answer to your question I am always approachable and would try and move mountains for both present members and any others desiring to be a part of our little piece of paradise. 

    As a matter of fact, just this morning through listening to people that come here, I sent out an email to one of our younger members. Who has also become in touch with YNA through my suggestion. They have talked about the trials and tribulations that young naturists and potential younger nudists have financially in visiting our clubs. Now that is not say that us older ones can always fit the bill either, we all have life obligations as well. I have proposed that at a discounted rate we would like to add a weekend event for the younger group to come out and camp for a weekend. (Date still to be determined). 

    I feel that by listening to other naturists a lot can be accomplished on both sides of most equations. 

    As for requesting that anyone belong to any other organization before they can come in here is not something I would or will ever require. We believe that people will do as they see fit where there hard earned dollars are to be spent and that choice is solely theirs.

    I am sorry to hear hear that Mr. Schroer was dismissed. I never met and or spoke with the man directly, but from what I have seen here, the man was held in high regard for his efforts and I certainly wish him the best and maybe some closure on this issue and possibly some answers.

    Yvonne

  • nudiarist

    YvonneGibson nudiarist richard Mason On the first point, the club I mentioned received a grant from AANR to dredge a pond, so they did benefit from being a 100% club. I don’t know of any individual AANR members who have gotten similar financial help.
    AANR knows that without the 100% clubs, they would likely implode.
    I had a friend who lost his job because it was discovered that he was a nudist. I have him a phone number for AANR and they did nothing. I then put him in touch with The Naturist Action Committee and they immediately put him in touch with a local attorney. He didn’t get his job back, but at least the NAC gave a damn about him.
    On the PR front, I know that I took a hand in writing press releases for my club and distributing them to local newspapers and radio/TV stations. We did get some positive results from these efforts, and the owner was interviewed on the local radio a couple of times. We also got some exposure on TV and in local papers, but very little.
    I also did some writing for the AANR Bulletin and wrote a couple of press releases for them. I’m not aware of any news outlets picking up any of my articles, and I never saw them show up in Internet searches. I don’t even know if they were distributed in the first place.
    On the other hand, Tom Mulhall of The Terra Cotta Inn is pretty successful at getting his press releases picked up, and YNA has had some success, too.
    I also looked into starting my own AANR affiliated club. Turns out there is a $100 application fee, and the club would need 15 paid AANR members in order to be official. That would be nearly $1000 in AANR’s pocket just to get started.
    Let me ask you this, Yvonne. If I said that I could bring 20 people to Freedom Fields for a weekend, would you extend us a group discount? Would you require each of us to be a member of either AANR or TNS in order to get a break on the grounds fees?
    Ultimately the AANR model is outdated and broken. At least Bill Schroer was trying to shake things up a bit. As someone in this thread already noted, those proposals have basically been referred to ad hoc committees with AANR and the odds of any of these ideas being implemented are pretty slim.

  • YvonneGibson

    nudiarist YvonneGibson richard Mason Thank you for your response here, I do however beg to differ and see how clubs collecting AANR Memberships benefit financially. The memberships are collected on behalf these organisations and these fees do not stay in the pocket  of the clubs.

    OOOPS no pockets here ;) 

    I make it a point to ask everyone that graces our doors how they heard about FFNR and I would say to date at least 95% (if not higher) that have visited us here and or called have had no affiliation with either AANR or the FCN. Nor do most even know what these organizations are about.  All that have inquired here has been from my ongoing presence on the World Wide Web, (Facebook and Twitter to name a few) also newspaper articles that we have been in, three to date in our short tenure of opening and or from radio interviews that I have been involved with. Further to that my personal advertising and promoting throughout various media sources.

    In the beginning we thought that working hand in hand with these groups would be beneficial to the naturist community, however I have since learned through trial and error that these relationships are strictly a one way affair and the interest was never really there for a new venue. 

    I am and will never be the type to beg any organization to visit my ranch and or ask them for assistance. This is a venture that I hold very near and dear to my heart and I look forward to meeting many wonderful naturists along way. 

    Memberships to these organizations are never mandated here nor will they ever be.

    I would love to see the clubs work together along the way, as one club may not be for everyone, but there certainly is a place out there for each and everyone of us to enjoy.

    Thanks for the site I will look it over.
    Cheers
    Yvonne

  • jochanaan

    Some commenters here seem to have the mistaken impression that some of us are questioning the value of any nudist organization.  No, we are merely questioning the operating methods of AANR and especially Ms. Beverly Price.  She might clear up a lot of confusion if she would only make an honest statement…

  • nudiarist

    YvonneGibson nudiarist richard Mason Certainly many of the members don’t see the value in being members of AANR. I used to belong to a 100% club, and around the campfire one night each and every person present could not speak to the benefits they have received from being a cardholder. They also resented being forced to join AANR simply because they were members of that landed club. But the owners certainly see the benefit from collecting these monies from the members – they recently received a sizable grant to dredge a pond on their property when facilities such as bathrooms and rental cabins were far more in need of upgrade and expansion. Pure stupidity.
    As for the people who have left that campground over the past several years, I don’t know of one person who renewed their AANR membership. One couple is considering it because they are going to Florida for a month and the cost of membership might be worth the discounts they will receive when they visit clubs, but that’s a close call.
    Yvonne, you are absolutely correct when you question the “value add” of being an AANR member. It seems to me that the organization is in panic mode where they are losing members on a regular basis and need every penny they can get from clubs and members. The reality is probably that they simply cannot afford to offer a less expensive membership option. AANR has plans to sell its Kissimmee building with no public plans to relocate. They have fired their Executive Director and I have heard nothing about any plans to hire a replacement.
    The problem with AANR getting out of the Fifties is that they simply might not have the funds and support to try and dig themselves out of this hole.
    Nude recreation has evolved from the rustic campground to more luxurious resorts and nude cruises. Have you seen what they are doing in France with naturist resorts? http://en.france4naturisme.com/
    Then take a look at the AANR and TNS websites and the contrast is remarkable.

  • YvonneGibson

    carlnudi Absolutely Carl, Jordan and Felicity are a breath of fresh air and I hope to see more younger people engage in the conversations along the way. Keep up the great work guys!!

  • YvonneGibson

    nudiarist richard Mason As a business owner I would like to add something further that has become a bee in my bonnet. We also pay dues to be members of these organizations and I cannot even get anyone from AANR to return my information as to what area of the organizations umbrella I fall under. I believe due to our location we would best be located within the Eastern District and for some reason we are in the mid west. (Does not make sense to me) The only person that has ever returned my calls and or emails was Gloria in the Eastern area. However we have been in limbo land since. I personally do not see any benefit of supporting these organizations when they cannot be bothered with us. Maybe it is because we are small potatoes in there minds and they do not take the small mom and pop shops serious. Oh well as I see it that further puts nails in their doors as us club owners have no reasons to promote them in return. 

    Where is the value add, certainly no win win scenario’s here. They expect that the clubs will offer discounts to their members just because we become members. I am thoroughly discussed with how these organizations operate.

    I also agree that they need to get out of the 50’s, I spend more time on line promoting Naturism / Nudist lifestyle and get more satisfaction and friendships in doing so. 

    OK my rants over sorry

    Yvonne

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason

    I cannot disagree with you and I am not a defender of any specific fees.

    AARP is an insurance operation and it keeps its annual fee low to do two things. 
    1. We all put a value on something we invest in. There are benefits with the AARP card with discounts at hotels and etc.
    2. AARP wants your name so they can try to sell you insurance. Their insurance business is so good that I heard over 10 executives with AARP make over $1 million annually.

    AANR recently initiated an infinity program with a long list of companies where you will get a discount.

    In the decision to pay a dues, the buyer has to see a benefit and a value.  That  differs in each person and couple.

    Our organization’s annual membership is at $35 a household..

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    vegascpl richard Mason

    I have not been involved in AANR, internally, for over 24 years. And, that was in the development of the Florida Region. I have not been an AANR member until 2014.

    For the past two years I (we) have been working with the President of AANR-Florida in attempts to develop new designated naturist beaches in Florida as well as protect existing sites.

    Also, they have switched lobbyists to where they are now using the same lobbyist that we have used for over 24 years.  We have worked together during the last two legislative sessions and at a few county areas and a few beach development areas.

    I feel that anyone living in Florida who wants to protect and expand naturist interests in Florida should join AANR because a portion of the money goes to the Florida Region where it is being used effectively.

    I am really not that familiar with AANR nationally. I do know there are other regions and they get a portion of each members dues.  If that is correct, then it would be up to each region to be pro-active in their Region.

    AANR- Nationaal does not do more for the Florida region than other regions. Their office is here, but it is the Florida Region under Ralph Collinson that has been active.

    Our organization has worked effectively in Florida for over 30 years. We have used NAC, NEF and TNS  and BEACHES Foundation  resources as back-up, but we are basically pro-active , self-supported . We have a separate Legal Defense Fund and Political Action Fund and navigate election cycles and legislative sessions independently.

    We decide back in 1989 that if we wanted a designated beach here, we would have to designate it and we did. We also figured out that if we wanted to protect nude recreation in Florida, we would have to do that, ourselves.

    I believe San Onofre was lost because there was no organization structured like our association to protect it politically. 

    We have members from all over the United States and financial supporters , too.

    People visit Haulover Beach, witness what we have accomplished and then decide to support us.

    I did not request anyone on this blog to join us or support us, because that would be self serving. However, if someone wants to financially support an organization that has a record of being supportive, and they have a few dollars over and above what they now spend on associations, I would recommend they send that to NAC. 

    Associations respond to members. Members must be pro-active in telling an association what they expect and in what direction they want to see the assoc. go.

    Richard  Mason
    SFFB/FNA
    Haulover Beach

  • vegascpl

    richard Mason Richard, I’m more than willing to support the cause. However, this is the image that I and a lot of the membership have of ANAR.

    1. ANAR is more of a travel club than a special interest group. Look at the agenda of the winter Las Vegas meeting for example. They discussed changing the name, tabled it! The discussed adult, sexually oriented club, which they have never experience and know nothing about, referred to committee. The Carver method, referred to committee. Discussed trade association to provide revenue-producing services to clubs, like what specifically? Apparently no action taken? Move the facility, tabled it. Pricing structure, it’s apparently complex? Now lets consider the cost of flying everyone to Vegas for the weekend putting them up in hotels and meals. Maybe I’m wrong, but far as I can tell they accomplished absolutely nothing at this meeting. That’s what my dues are paying for!

    When there is an ANAR convention at a resort do the directors make an effort to socialize with the members and find out what their thoughts are about the future of ANAR, nope. They don’t even have dinner at the resort. They are on expense accounts. There are much nicer restaurants outside the resort. Once again those are my dues dollars at work!

    Of course there is the fear factor. ANAR will be there if you ever need legal assistance. Really? Never heard of that happening. They will protect your beaches. Really? What about San Onofre? The impression of most of the West coast is that ANAR only cares about Florida.

    Then we have an Executive director who looks like he might just bring ANAR into the 21st century and they fire him for no apparent reason.

    I have no choice but to support ANAR, but I at least would like to think that they represent our best interests. There are many nudists who are not convinced that is true. All it would take is better communication. I think the board should hold fewer meeting and communicate two way with their membership. Then I would be more than happy to support the organization.

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason AANR’s problem with a $93.50 annual fee for couples ensures its existence as a fringe interest group. We need numbers to achieve more progress, not just money. You simply cannot expect the average person who visits a nudist resort a couple of times each year to share your own admirable enthusiasm and hard work. In addition, the general public is not aware that AANR, TNS and YNA even exist, and when there is publicity, it’s usually bad, such as with what happened at Sunsport Gardens last year when it was raided by Homeland Security over child pornography issues. Expecting people to simply cough up hundreds of dollars each year to support these groups is just a pipe dream. If there is just a basic membership fee for about $15 or $20 like AARP or the NRA, then people will pay if they can get a discount at resorts. Otherwise memberships will continue to decline. As Yvonne pointed out earlier, you don’t even need the orgs to search for resorts, all you need is Internet access. Organized nudism’s problem is that it is still stuck in a 1950s mindset.

  • richard Mason

    jochanaan richard Mason nudiarist jasenj1

    AANR for reasons unknown to me, did not participate. 

    In setting -up the Public Relations, the Media Opportunity, Government Affairs and Lobbying defense and action plan. they originally agreed to  participate. 

    Because of that verbal  agreement, SFFB/FNA went ahead with the contract with the Sach Group/Tallahassee.

    After we committed, AANR cancelled their participation.

    Eric Shuttauf never explain why and we never asked.

    We were too busy trying to find the money and execute the time-sensitive program.

    We just assumed they had other plans.

    We moved on to be successful in our limited way. I like to think we showed the media, the legislature and the governor that they had awakened a sleeping giant.

    Each G/A action educates a lot of people. The aide to Foley later ran and got elected to the Florida State Legislature. He now knew our issues and supported our efforts in later years.

    When I was in the Army, my sergeant told us the 90% of life is just showing up.

    This exercise in ‘fighting-back” proved that to be true.

    Richard Mason
    SFFB/FNA

  • jochanaan

    richard Mason nudiarist jasenj1 And yet I observe that AANR is conspicuously absent from the Nudist Youth Camp defense list you just provided…

  • carlnudi

    Very good article, Jordan. I was shocked to hear that Bill Schroer was fired. I’ve been a member of AANR for more than 25 years and his time as ED to me was the most productive. 

    BTW, have you reached out to Ms. Price about her reasons for letting Bill go? It would be interesting to hear her side.

    Take care. You and Felicity are doing a wonderful job in promoting nudism/naturism to the young people.

    Thank you,

  • vegascpl

    richard Mason vegascpl Thanks for the information on Key West. We have reservations but we are closely watching what is going on and will cancel if it looks like it’s going to change which I suspect it will. 

    As for Vegas it’s not booze, and nude dance clubs. It’s that families are on budgets and don’t spend money especially on gambling. That’s why the family thing lasted a year. Now the big money is in nigh clubs in may cases more than gambling revenue. There are DJ’s here who make $8 Million a year for working three nights a week! Just like nude resorts there is a big demand for a sexy night club experience.

    Caliente as well as Paradise have had their problems. Paradise was because of an owner. Caliente sold property in the beginning as a family resort, but they soon found they could not pay the bills just like Vegas. The simple fact of life is that nudists are not willing to pay for nice facilities lifestyle folks are. I understand the plight of the people who purchased there wanting a family resort. The answer was simple if you want it to remain that way you have to stand up and pay the price. Otherwise as a business they have to change their business model to makes economic sense or close the doors.

    The point about the increase is that ANAR is always saying they bring people to your resort. That would appear to be contrary to real life experience.

    I’m guessing if Key West makes the move to family they will find out that families won’t pay $700+ per night for hotel rooms for a week. However, the cruise ships are coming in larger numbers including Disney so the economics may not be as important.

  • richard Mason

    vegascpl

    Caliente may have had an increase in memberships because that is their entrance method, however, a lot of nudists have left and many want to leave but are caught the residential connection. They use the facility during the day but avoid it at night.

    Some who live there are having problems in their private  and business life because of the reputations of Caliente.

    Time will sort it out.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    vegascpl

    Key West: The private/public group that runs Fantasy Fest changes from time to time due to new people that run the event. It used to be a free float event. We had an float in the event back in the early days. They then started looking for corporate sponsors. The corporations came and wanted the nudity off the floats. Then there has been talk about making it a “FAMILY” thing and then people will bring their children and they will be able hustle Disney or Universal to sponsor the whole thing as well as have floats,

    Las Vegas went the family route and lost money. They are back to the booze, nudity shows and more strip clubs.

    Key West is a complicated place. There are four components to the place.

    Group One:The retired military and other residents. They don’t want any more tourists. They are backed-up by the church groups. There are more churches per resident in Key West that any other city. ( I was told.). They opposed a nude beach. They do have a designated dog park.

    Group Two. The Tourist attraction businesses. They want the tourists and the Fantasy Fest to stay boozy and with nudity. BUT, they will not publicly say that.  They refused to get involved in our attempt to get a designated nude beach. They fear the residents reaction.

    Group Three: The C of C/business and Hotel Industry. They like the occupancy rates but will not publicly support a Fantasy Fest with nudity. They fear repercussions from the churches that appear to have a lot of church folks from other communities coming into Key West for church events. They would not support, publicly, a nude beach even though the number one question every day at the front desk is. “Where is the nude beach.”

    Group Four: The Gay business community and the B & B and Lodging industry. They want the Fantasy Fest to be the way it is  with the nudity and the festivities.

    The politicians report to the voters who many want to change the present culture. Those that work in the hospitality industry are usually outlanders that come to Key West for adventure and its loose social fabric.

    If the theme goes Family, that will last one year. Money talks.

    As Bogart said in Casablanca, “We will always have Haulover Beach.”

    Richard

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason nudiarist jasenj1 Keep in mind that the whole youth camp fiasco stemmed from a bungled attempt at PR from AANR through a New York Times article, so it was somewhat of a self-inflicted wound. The organization was similarly inept on the San Onofre Beach issue.
    Also, not all regions of AANR have the power and/or money of Florida. Here in Ohio we are in the Midwest region, and I can’t even tell you what they have done in the past 10 years other than get together a couple of times each year and elect officers.
    Bottom line is that membership costs to join these organizations is way too high for the average person. Certainly many politically minded nudists and naturists are happy to pay a couple hundred dollars or year (or more), but the people who visit a resort a couple of times each year are simply not going to join.  I understand that among Bill Schroer’s proposals was to restructure membership. Not sure what he had in mind, but there needs to be an option in the $20 range which allows limited membership benefits, such as discounts at clubs. 
    I agree with you that these groups need to get together and stop fighting over minutiae and concentrate on the big picture. We really need one strong central organization which has ALL regions of the country properly represented.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason jasenj1

    You should be aware that South Florida Free Beaches hired an expensive lobbying  & Government Affairs firm in Tallahassee and orchestrated the Nudist Youth Camp defense. The Tallahassee G/A people found out in advance what Gov. Bush’s feelings were and then had the question asked at a press conference.

    We put together a coalition of over 20 people and organizations, including the Naturist Society, BEACHES Foundation and the Naturist Action Committee and met with Rep. Foley on the issue.

    Immediately after that meeting we held a Media Opportunity in the hotel next door and issued extensive media kits to the media and had a Q & A and did interviews.. All the TV feeds came out of that Press Conference.

    Cost $10,000 plus expenses

    Paid for by SFFB, NAC & TNS & BEACHES Foundation.

    That is why you belong to a naturist association . They must have money in the bank and be able to move quickly to present their case. They cannot go around begging for dollars , which takes months and then try to present their case when the public has moved on and the media have left the room and maybe a bill becomes a law..

    If naturism fails and becomes illegal, it will because of the naturist community itself, sitting around debating minutea while our enemies destroy our reputations.

    A dollar a week is the cost of a membership.in TNS % AANR and .67 cents a week in SFFB/FNA. NAC & Beaches Foundation live on direct donations.

    In Tallahassee where money rules, the cadre of lobbyists, government affairs people, the fund raisers and lawyers laugh at us because when they  ask us for a $1000  for a campaign or Victory Fund and we don’t have it they  just shake their heads.

    Understanding how the mechanics of things work is the way you survive. Money is the lubricant of that machinery.

    If you are not out in front and the leader of the pack, the view never changes.

    Richard Mason
    SFFB/FNA

  • YvonneGibson

    livefyrebob YvonneGibson Not in all cases and from what I know clubs do incur a great deal of expense to give the public at large a little peace of heaven. 

    Supporting their efforts is admirable! Lets face it if the Naturists / Nudist do not want to be a part of the clubs then the over head is still there for these owners and yes then the bottom line comes into question and in order to stay open they have to change direction on marketing plans. No different than in any other business, so to help maintain the environments you desire people need to support the clubs.

    Yvonne

  • YvonneGibson

    vegascpl Well said, At the end of the day! when in Rome do as Romans do. It is a personal choice to attend any venue and a little surfing on websites and you will find what you are looking for. I know sometimes people think that the clubs should coward to these organizations. But until the day comes that they actually work hand in hand with the clubs and get to know what they the clubs require to keep offering a wide variety to the Naturists and Nudists of the world they have no say IMHO. These organization may serve the public with issues surrounding Nude Beaches and nothing more. 

    As for any new comers to this forum I certainly hope that some have not scared you away from something that is a truly enjoyable lifestyle with so many wonderful and happy go lucky people in which in a short period of time will feel like family.  All this ongoing talk of laws and offenses would have made me walk in the other direction away from this way of living life clothing free. Fortunately I have been around the nudist community for many years now to know that most of it is just hot air and few ruffling their feathers. 

    Bottom line is go where you feel comfortable and just be yourselves and enjoy 

    Naturally
    Yvonne

  • vegascpl

    Wow lots of comments in the past couple of days, and we still have no idea why the executive director was fired.

    A couple of quick comments and then I have a question for Richard.

    A rating system only needs two categories. F for Family and A for Adult. The only real difference between the two clubs is the presence of children. It is interesting the board was attempting to come up with classifications for clubs they had never personally visited. Isn’t that kind of like the blind leading the blind?

    In reality a rating system is meaningless. ANAR’s list has no value. Even George W used “the Google” to find information. When I’m traveling I simply do a search, like most people, and get detailed information from the clubs web site. The days of needing a list of nude resorts is over.

    It sounds like there was some concern that the ED was reaching out to the two largest clubs in the country Caliente and Paradise. Why would they want to come back to ANAR? ANAR has nothing to offer. I know for a fact that Caliente’s membership went up 25% in six months after they dropped ANAR. If ANAR wants to attract members, and keep clubs from leaving they need to show there is value from membership.

    Richard, I attempted to write an E-mail but there doesn’t appear to be a a way to send a private message. We’ve been going to Fantasy Fest for 11 years now. It was obvious this year that things are changing. We have reservations to return this year. However, I’m aware that there is a lot of political discussion taking place in Key West. There is from what I understand a pretty powerful group that wants to make the event a family costume event. Reading your comments I’m guessing you know a lot about what’s going on in Key West. I’m not interested in spending thousands of dollars to attend a family costume party! It sounds like you maybe working the local government and / or maybe this group. I know this is off subject, and it’s not your type of event. Do you have any inside knowledge that you can share so that I can make plans accordingly. Thank you

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason nudiarist jasenj1 Yes, and parental rights on that issue were reaffirmed by Jeb Bush as Governor of Florida when Mark Foley was coming after nudist resorts about a decade ago, but I also support the rights of adults who don’t feel comfortable being nude around other people’s children.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist jasenj1 richard Mason

    Children at a nudist resort are a statement of parents right to raise their children as they want to.

    Ricchard

  • vegascpl

    Wow, there have certainly been a lot of comments over the
    past 24 hours. Unfortunately at least in my opinion most are base on
    speculation and fantasy rather than personal experience. i don’t want to disappoint, but the orgies you are having fantasies only happen behind close doors, after the bar closes, by invitation!

    I have no idea where the comment about molesting children
    came from. What makes you think that you’ll cut down on child molestation if
    you have more kids? If it’s all adults doesn’t that eliminate the problem? This sounds like the lies some told about gays in the past.

    The discussion of a rating system in my opinion is silly.
    That makes the assumption that many people are actually going to ANAR to find
    nude resorts. Yes, I’m sure some still do. There was a time when that
    information was needed, but it’s been a very long time. These days even George
    W. uses “The Google.” If you are traveling, you simply search out
    nude or clothing option resorts in that area and go to their web sites. I’ve
    only been on ANAR’s web site once and found nothing there of interest. Why
    would anyone care what rating ANAR gives a resort. Who would assign the
    ratings? Most of you have no idea what happens at these resort in real life.
    You only need to categories, F for Family and A for Adult only. The X rating is just more childish name calling.

    I think someone mentioned that Bill attempting to keep
    resorts who want to become adults only in ANAR, but not let Caliente and Paradise
    back into the fold. Why would Caliente want to return to ANAR? What does ANAR
    do for Caliente or for that matter any nude resort? If you look at the
    attendance of ANAR conventions, and how well clubs the clubs that have left
    ANAR, ANAR has a negative impact on clubs.

    As I recall someone suggested we should contact ANAR. That’s
    a complete waste of time, just like posting here! ANAR’s income is guaranteed.
    Membership is mandatory. If the ANAR board is truly interested in what their
    members think of the organization, I would suggest they go to a resort a week
    prior to the convention. Don’t tell them who you are. Then asked them what they
    think of the organization. I think board members would be shocked.

    Personally I would like to see ANAR become a viable
    institution that actually accomplishes something. I really thought there was
    light at the end of the tunnel! Then they fired the one bright light! If he had
    stayed I would have voluntarily paid dues to ANAR to support the organization.
    However, now I wish that ANAR was membership optional!

    On a final note, my wife and I attended Fantasy Fest this year. It was our 11 th year in Key West for the event. We have reservation for next year, but we’ve been reading a lot about groups that want to make the event a family costume event. I’m guessing the same people Richard is working with. I think they are smoking something really good if they think families will come to Key West for a week and spend $700 a night for a family costume party. I know we won’t!

  • jasenj1

    nudiarist richard Mason YvonneGibson
    (I’m not sure where to put this reply. But I’ll jam it in here.)
    IMHO, this has been an excellent discussion. One of the most spirited and civil I’ve been in concerning nudism.
    I’m just a guy with a keyboard with no real authority. I am not a lawyer, my opinions of the law are worth every penny you pay for them. I lived in FL for several years and attended a meeting where an anti-nudity ordinance was passed – one very similar to the one Richard posted.
    IMHO, a plain reading of the FL state statute, and the county ordinances such as the one Richard posted, indicates that getting “frisky” or “handsy” or “flirty” IS a clear violation of the laws. The deciding factor is the nudity. The exact same “sexual” (as in having sexual arousal or stimulation as its intent) activity in a textile environment would be perfectly legal.

    Now, just because I think it’s illegal, and even if it is illegal, doesn’t mean law enforcement is going to take any action. For example, driving 59 in a 55. Some jurisdictions are more lenient, some are very strict. Also, see marijuana related laws. The Justice Department has issued memos stating they won’t prosecute. But those memos could be rescinded at any moment. So with the indecent exposure laws. No one may be being arrested or shut down for friskiness now, but that does not mean they could not be or that they are not in violation of the law.
    To tie this back to the ratings system: If AANR were to accept and rate clubs as to level of “friskiness” a paranoid interpretation could say that they are advocating violating the law. And the opponents of nudism and AANR would/could jump all over that and use it against us.
    PERSONALLY, I think it’s a good idea to rate clubs on “friskiness”, and I respect the right of adults to have “naughty time” (not full-on swinging, but a bit of dirty dancing and the like). There is still a line that should/must not be crossed.
    I also think it’s perfectly fine for clubs to exclude children, and be rated so, just because they don’t want children around (see “adult” trailer parks) not because they are doing anything unwholesome.
    Again, good discussion, but I think this horse is thoroughly beaten. I don’t think we solved any of the world’s problems, but maybe someone with real influence has read it and taken note.

  • j238

    So much is unknown here. 

    Bill Schroer should have been told the reason for his dismissal.  Now there’s so much speculation going on.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason jasenj1 YvonneGibson

    My last email concerned a group of naturists around a pool  that are interested in AANR being successful.

    Bill Schroer was not part of that group.

    I have no idea what Bill was considering and have no idea if he was even thinking of a rating system.

    I personally do not think the movie rating system will work. Most Americans do not know what it means.

    Your recommendations make sense.

    If you live in Florida I can tell you that AANR-Florida is doing a lot for the expansion of nude recreation in the public lands. That is because we are working together.

    We just assisted in the establishment of Florida’s first nude beach in 24 years.  

    They just hired a Lobbyist and sent him to Lee County to meet with the Sheriff which resulted in Little Hickory Key being left alone.

    They have a paid lobbyist in Tallahassee and in the last session that lobbyist which is also SFFB/FNA paid lobbyist prevented two draconian amendment to Fl. S/S 800.03  the L & L Statute from becoming law.

    They joined with SFFB, NAC and paid for the lobbyist to attend Clay County and  help prevent an ordinance from being enacted into law in October.

    For a dollar a week a year;membership is reasonable in TNS and AANR. in SFFB it is .67 cents a week.

    Less than a beer a week.

    Richard

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason nudiarist jasenj1 YvonneGibson First of all, I doubt that Bill Schroer’s idea of a ratings system included “X” rated clubs where open sexual intercourse was tolerated, at least not from anything I’ve ever heard.
    Secondly, you talk about “steal a feel” activity being acceptable. If that’s true, is that acceptable for all ages, even children? I doubt it, hence the need for a ratings system based on what is appropriate for those under 18. Is a lingerie dance a “steal a feel” activity? What about body painting?What about workshops on tantric sex or polyamory? And so on.
    Any suggestion that a ratings system be based EXACTLY on the MPAA’s G, PG, PG-13, R, and NC-17 designations is absurd. That’s just a starting point. To me, it should be F for “family” (everyone) and “A” for adults (21 and older). The “A” doesn’t mean that people will be having sexual intercourse by the pool – clubs will still have their general rules of behavior, I’ve spoken to people who genuinely feel uncomfortable being nude around other people’s children. The nudist idea says nothing about it being inclusive of all ages. It’s still nudism if there are no kids around.
    I’ve seen adult Halloween parties with drunk, nude people dancing and carrying on with kids around, and while I fully support family nudism, there is a time and a place for including children.
    For example, a club could designate the hours between 9 AM and 7 PM as “F” for families (all ages), and after hours as “A” for adults 21 and older. Take the kids home, put them to bed, or restrict them to a children’s area.
    We are a small interest group and we definitely need a strong organizations, but how much money can individuals be expected to spend? It’s $93.50 per year for a couples’ AANR membership. TNS is $60. YNA charges $22 annually but they restrict people by age from certain events. On top of the cost of membership, you have to pay for grounds fees, RV hookups, tent camping fees, electrical fees, food, ice, drinks, etc.
    So wishing and hoping for more members isn’t getting these organizations anywhere. AANR and TNS do little or nothing to keep their current members, and there’s no real membership drive as far as I can tell. Hell, if you don’t already belong to either organization, their public relations on social media and the internet are virtually non-existent. 
    So what is the answer? There needs to be a strong leader who can bring all these different factions together and set a sight for the future. At this point in time, I know of no such person.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason jasenj1 YvonneGibson

    Last year there were discussions by a few  AANR members about the need to stop the loss of memberships and the need to increase membership.

    During the discussion, suggestions were, (Not by anyone previously talked about here) but by concerned nudists, that maybe AANR should reach out to the two largest clubs in Pasco county, who should remained not named here and attempt to get them back into AANR. 

    The issue was a rating system. None of the people in the discussion group have ever been to these clubs.

    They discussed using the movie rating system as a model. Then the question came up would you rate a club “X.”

    Another stated of course not because that resort would not meet AANR standards. 
    Bingo!

    Many on this blog cannot image a resort allowing sexual activity (penetration) so they do not understand the Paradox.

    We are not talking here about a steal a feel activity. Heck, that goes no everywhere from a church to the state legislatures to the US Congress.

    “Not that there is anything wrong with that.” — Seinfeld.

    Since memberships are by individuals, I believe membership drives should be held wherever nudist gather.

    I also believe that everyone who enjoys nude recreation should be a member of a national and/or strong local 
    nudist/naturist association. If not a member at least a donor.

    I also believe that every member should inform the leadership of what you wish them to do for nude recreation.

    We are too small of an interest  group not to have the maximum number of members that we can.

    The first thing a legislator ask you is “How many members do you have?”

    Richard

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason nudiarist jasenj1 YvonneGibson Thanks for the clarification, but you did say that “penetration and oral sex” was the issue, and that was very confusing.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason jasenj1 YvonneGibson

    Let me state the following once and for all.

    No. 1. I have never stated that Bill Schroer supported allowing nudist clubs that allow sexual activity back into AANR. Never.

    No. 2 I believed and still do that Bill Schroer was good for AANR and supported him. Bill was doing research and preparing to make recommendations to the board. I do not know what those were.

    No.3 I have no position on a rating system. I believe that would be up to the AANR Board and the Club owners. 

    No. 4. I believe in truth in advertising.

    No.5. I believe that each nudist resort that is affiliated with AANR & TNS should operate under the Rules and Etiquette of those associations. After all, they refer people and accept advertising from the resorts. They should also enforce the laws of their community and state.

    No. 6. If a resort chooses the allow open sexuality, and their nudist/naturist affiliation is revoked or denied by AANR and/or TNS then I believe that the resort should stop calling itself a nudist resort or a naturist resort.

    No7. I also believe that nudists who visit a public beach should know that they are not at a resort and accept responsibility for that public beach and speak up for nudist standards.

    Richard Mason
    SFFB/FNA

  • richard Mason

    jasenj1 YvonneGibson nudiarist

    You are correct. In most counties that have passed anti-nudity ordinances. That happened because they were orchestrated by the religious right churches. They got a county commissioner in introduce the boilerplate ordinance and in most counties they illegally packed the commission chambers by being let in a back door before the time of the public hearing and when the front door was opened to let the public in there was no seating.

    Park of the reason that happened is because the nudist residence did not show up. They stayed in the closet out of fear.

    I went to several of the meeting and when I called nudists I knew in the counties they declined to appear to oppose the ordinance.

    Richard Mason
    SFFB/FNA

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason nudiarist jasenj1 YvonneGibson Richard, I really don’t know why you keep insisting the issue is about “penetration and oral sex”, because absolutely nobody is suggesting that nudist clubs begin allowing that behavior. Every time you bring this up you infer that Bill Schroer wanted open sex acts at AANR clubs, and that simply is not the truth. You are just confusing the real issue here, which is why Mr. Schroer was fired, and it certainly was not over the issue of brazen sex acts at AANR clubs.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist jasenj1 YvonneGibson richard Mason

    The issue is not the dancing partners getting a little frisky on the dance floor. It is the sexual acts, in the public areas, of penetration and oral sex, (which in Florida is considered deviant behavior), that is the issue.

    RE: Key West. Has a zone established for Fantasy Fest that allows partial nudity, top free and painted bodies. However, it does not allow exposure of the genitalia.

    That Duval Street zone was establish in the 1990s after an attempt was made to pass an anti-nudity law.

    Myself, representing South Florida Free Beaches submitted a recommendation to the city attorney that they use the Largo, Florida ordinance of creating a zone for nude nightclubs as a guide to create a zone for Fantasy Fest. Which they did.

    Since then, the Largo Ordinance has been ruled  unconstitutional.

    The problem for Key West is not the nudists but the “I want to be nude in public exhibitionist streak” that is in the make-up of some people. They exceed the law.

    However, we have been successful in the Florida Keys in where the state prosecutor will not prosecute a citation for top-free sunbathing and has informed the 5 local cities and the county police chiefs not to send him those kind of citations.
    So if you get a citation in Monroe County, don’t plead “No Contest” , a plea of guilt and pay the fine. Plead not guilty and go to the state attorney’s office in Key west and request their help.

    Richard Mason
    So. Fl. Free Beachesl

  • nudiarist

    StuffedTiger nudiarist Actually, that’s the definition of an “R” rating – children must be accompanied by a parent or guardian.
    As for public sports events, just about every facility has rules and regulations for behavior and you can be ejected for profanity or abuse of alcohol. The NFL recently announced a zero tolerance policy regarding profanity used by players against each other, and both players and coaches have been assessed fines for abusive language. I one took my daughter to a MLB game and the people behind us were drunk and profane. One complaint to an usher and they were removed.
    On your last point, no body is proposing “public sexual activity”. It’s a red herring.

  • nudiarist

    StuffedTiger nudiarist It’s not a matter of being “allowed”, it’s a matter of having actually happened.

  • jasenj1

    YvonneGibson nudiarist
    Let me qualify my statement by saying it is the law in a particular place. Where you are the laws may be different and the political climate may be different. But in many parts of FL, the law and political climate are very hostile to nudity.

  • StuffedTiger

    nudiarist StuffedTiger

    The policy is that child pornography has never been allowed at any AANR club under any conditions, nor should it be in my opinion.

    Any club that cannot protect it’s children should be closed. 

    Clubs should become more kid friendly, not less. Adults should not be having sex in public, and certainly not with children present.

  • StuffedTiger

    nudiarist StuffedTiger
    Children should always be accompanied by parent or guardian. That doesn’t make their activity R rated.

    Children are exposed to people drinking, dancing, hooting and cursing at football games. Doesn’t make it adults only.

    Public sexual activity is not allowed at football games. Why should that be permitted in public at a nudist facility. That should be and is AANR policy.

  • nudiarist

    jasenj1 YvonneGibson nudiarist richard Mason Perhaps you can tell us all when the last nudist campground, resort or club was raided for anyone rubbing their breasts or wiggling seductively. Hell, that happens at just about any dance club in the US every single night. This really is paranoia. As I pointed out previously, Sunsport Gardens was recently raided by Homeland Security and two men are now serving jail time for child pornography, yet the venue remains open. Raids on nudist resorts for nudity or other “inappropriate behavior” ended long ago. As for strip clubs, to the best of my knowledge raids on those operations have revolved around drugs and prostitution. And every year in Key West 40000 people go to Fantasy Fest and really let their hair down, with lots of topless women with painted breasts, and tons of alcohol consumption. Police actually work to protect the revelers there in order to make sure things don’t get out of hand. Nudists always need to be good citizens, remain vigilant about any potential damaging legislation, stay away from illegal gaming at resorts or by organizations, and protect children and families with a ratings system,

  • jasenj1

    YvonneGibson nudiarist richard Mason
    The question is not what we, inside nudism, consider “sexual acts” or “inappropriate behavior” but what the LAW (and those enforcing and interpreting the law) considers them to be. Read the law Richard posted. You don’t need contact or penetration or anything like that. All you need is exposure (being nude) and intent. A woman rubbing her own breasts or wiggling seductively in a “public” area (e.g. dance floor or pool side) with intent to arouse anyone who can see her is guilty. And any business that ignores, condones, or encourages such behavior is an accessory.
    Logic need not apply. It’s the law. It’s politics.

  • livefyrebob

    YvonneGibson livefyrebob 
    Hi Yvonne,
    From my experience, for-profit organizations are more concerned with the bottom line (no pun intended) than they are with human wholeness.
    Bob

  • richard Mason

    YvonneGibson livefyrebob

    The importance of having officially designated or recognized naturist beaches on public lands is that it sends a message to legislators that  mere nudity is OK in  an appropriate place and because they exist, on public lands and have not been shut down is because nudists know how to behave while nude and among other nude people.

    When new legislators from north Florida  are in Tallahassee and in session, most have no knowledge about nude recreation. When you speak to them about non-sexual nude recreation they have a problem accepting the concept based on their background.

    They are very easy targets to become co-sponsors of anti-nudity bills.  That is why we have a lobbyist there and visit there ourselves.

    Richard

  • YvonneGibson

    livefyrebob Why would you want to leave the resorts and clubs out of the equation. Is it not the clubs that are in question here. Maybe it is high time that these organizations work with the club owners more and between the collective they can come up  with a positive direction to help lead everyone into the future as a community.  There is a great deal of knowledge that can be gained from these club owners as they have been living and breathing the naturist lifestyle daily.

  • livefyrebob

    Let’s hope that AANR, TNS, and YNA can come up with a clear agenda for promoting healthy, wholesome nude recreation.
    Perhaps the three organizations can find a way to join forces officially so we can more efficiently make a difference for the better in establishing public areas for nude recreation.
    So — Nicky, Bill, Bev, Jordan, Felicity, Gary, Ron — talk, be honest, get good advice, propose something wise and well-meaning.
    We need your leadership.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason

    The sale of alcohol represents from 30% to 60% of a resorts revenue, depending on food sales and door or gate feels.

    In a business set up to maximize profits, the sale of alcohol is the eky to financial success.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason jasenj1

    I have not stated that anyone had advocated open sexual acts.  I have stated that those acts are going on at  2 to 3 Florida resorts that identify themselves as nudist of naturist resorts.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    Clarification.

    When I was referring to overt sexual contacts (Vigina penetration and oral sex)  I was referring to 2 to 3 Florida resorts that call them selves nudist/naturist resorts.  

    They are classified as Adult Clubs.

    That does not mean that all clubs that decide to be Adult Only condone overt sexuality.

    Safety is a very valid reason for not wanting children at a nudist resort. Swimming pools, and horses would be a very valid reason.

    Richard

  • YvonneGibson

    nudiarist richard Mason jasenj1 I agree Richard you appear to be flogging a dead horse here. I have not seen one person advocating inappropriate behavior. Nudists enjoy the life style as they will and how they want to and do not want to be dictated to how to behave. You are talking to a very intelligent and respectable community here that have heads on their shoulders. I believe all this is, is about a rating system and nothing more.

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason nudiarist Then don’t sell liquor.

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason nudiarist jasenj1 Once again, please show me where ANYBODY has advocated “open sexual acts” at nudist clubs. You keep bringing this up, yet nobody is suggesting any such thing.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason

    Swinger Clubs are private clubs and operate legally as long as they do not sell liquor .You will not find a swinger club in a county that has an ordinance  like the proposed Clay County Ordinance. 

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist jasenj1 richard Mason

    In Response.

    I do not believe that was the original intent. 

    That begs the question is nudism a family event or an adult event? Why not be both?

    The problem for nudists is all the laws that can be used against them are laws in the Criminal Code. For resorts it is both the criminal code, the zoning codes and the health and safety codes. Then you have child protection laws.

    In all these statutes, ordinances and case laws, nudity in public or around children and where there is alcohol is  either considered  illegal  or cause for legal action.

    Gay relationships and gay marriage, all cause for a jail sentence until recently  and better defined and protected by getting new case law which protects LGBT’s under the umbrella of the US Constitution and the Civil Rights Acts  and now they are a “Protected Class.”

    Nudists and Naturists have never traveled the route and are not considered a “Protected Class.”  That is what our problem is today.

    Nudism is considered a lifestyle and government does not have to protect your lifestyle.

    That is why the behavior while nude is the critical factor in our being able to enjoy nude recreation. 

    Those that have fought the political and legal wars over mere simple nudity all believe we are vulnerable to being shut down..The only thing that protects us at this point is our enemies lack.”CAUSE.”

    Allow open sexual acts in a nudist environment is equal to handing a gun to a person that wants to commit suicide or a victory to our enemies. That’s my opinion.

    Richard

  • vegascpl

    Richard my wife and I have been nudists for at least 35 years. We’ve visited clubs, beaches, and hot springs all over the country. When our children were growing up we took them to nude beaches and occasionally to a club. I have several comments about some of the things you have said today.

    Most people, even people from Europe, don’t really care about adults being sexy and rubbing up against each other on the dance floor! However, those same people are very concerned about any kind of sexual behavior around children. An example, might be the Bill and Monica thing. Bill’s approval ratings went up not down! 

    Years ago children at nude resorts was fairly common. I’m not sure what has changed. Maybe it’s the Catholic church’s problems with priests, but whatever it is society has changed. There are very few children at most nude resorts. Parents just don’t bring them anymore. I think I’d feel the same way if my children were younger, for better or worse society has changed. Many people don’t see nudity and children as healthy. At the same time they don’t care if consenting adults are nude or sexy and sensual.

    I’ve been to both ANAR and non-ANAR resorts multiple times every year. The big difference between the two resorts is not sex in the hot tub. It’s wearing sexy lingerie or a sexy dress to the dance instead of going naked. Traditional nudists seem to think that “everyone” should be naked every possible minute of the day. Modern nudist are naked at the pool, but they prefer to dress at least on the bottom half for dinner. They wear shorts to the gym. They dress beautiful and sexy for the dances. They also prefer to be around other adults. Just because you want to look good does not mean you are a swinger, or that you intend to have sex in public.

    If what I’ve said is true, then it’s not the adult nude resorts that have an image problem and might legal problems. I’ve never heard of any of them having problems maybe you can enlighten me?

    So ANAR protects us from the big bad government? So how about telling the beach folks from Southern California about San Onofre beach. Many of them think ANAR dropped the ball!

    Having said all of this, I do support having a national nudist organization. I just think that ANAR is stuck in the 60’s doing the same thing over and over. I was hoping that the new executive director could bring ANAR into the 21st century, and that ANAR would once again become a popular association among it’s members.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason

    In a rating system, the word adult has a variety of meanings and should be avoided,

    Age limitations or restrictions may be a better way to channel the public.

    It would be great if you could state: No Bozos, No Gawkers, No A/H’s. But that may not be politically correct.

    Words like: No facilities for children. Not having a lifeguard at a pool is a very good reason to deny the admittance of children. It is a very legal issue and a resort’s attorney would advise you to not admit children because of that issue.

    Richad

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason Just to clarify the facts, Bill Clinton said “I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky” in a statement made at The White House shortly after the scandal broke. He later admitted to having a “relationship” with the intern.

  • richard Mason

    Back in the 1960’s when a case was before the US Supreme Court on the issue of pornography, one of the justices stated that he could not define pornography but he knew it when he saw it.

    We all know that a little human response stuff goes on, but some times to protect our sanity we have to overlook some things.

    As far as Bill Clinton stating” He did not have a relationship with that woman”‘, He was correct.

    A BJ is not a relationship, based on the definition of a relationship within the early interpretation and definition of the sin Adultery by the bible scholars of the ancient world.

    What many did not know is that Bill Clinton traveled with a Miami based Rabbi for a whole week discussing religion before that hearing and the statement. 

    In the ancient world, when they defined the 10 Commandments, certain sexual acts by married men were not considered sins and certainly not a relationship.

    As a lawyer, I am sure Clinton was trying use as wiggle-room the two thousand year old definition of the word “relationship” to the hypocrites that were grilling him, all for political purposes and who, like us, use the current definition of the word “relationship.”

    I digress.

  • nudiarist

    “As difficult as it is, you must tell your immediate family. You must tell your relatives. You must tell your friends if indeed they are your friends. You must tell the people you work with. You must tell the people in the stores you shop in. Once they realize that we are indeed their children, that we are indeed everywhere, every myth, every lie, every innuendo will be destroyed once and all. And once you do, you will feel so much better” 
    ― Harvey Milk

    Nudism needs its own “Harvey Milk”. Was Bill Schroer that man? We might never know. The nudist world suffers a lot of ills, of which secrecy and self-closeting is primary. It also is negligent on other issues, such as age, gender, marital status and sexual orientation discrimination. It is guilty of institutional racism. Nudists hide behind high fences and locked gates, while other once unthinkable social progress is being made by the gay and lesbian communities.

    Instead of addressing the big picture, which is making nudism as acceptable as gay marriage, we continue to bicker about the details, many of which are listed in Jordan’s article. Hell, we cannot even agree on which organization should represent us. Even AANR is really a split organization with most of the groundwork being done by the seven regions, primarily through Florida, the East and the West.

    So where is the Harvey Milk of nudism? He or she is out there somewhere. If nudists and naturists ever needed an inspiring leader, it’s now.

  • richard Mason

    Most mature organizations have had the digital age pass them by as they get stuck in their safe aand traditional place.

    But in a membership organization some of that can be traced back to the fact that most members do not participate or make recommendations and those involved are so busy maintaining the status quo, that they don’t develop the skill set needed to change.

    I know Bill Schroer was aware of of the issues and was developing recommendations to make to the board.

    AANR has a new president. It is imperative that members write to her with their observations and recommendations. Priorities are developed based on positive complaints. Presidents and board members are not mind readers or automatically know what to change and in what priority. They do respond to members because membership is the heart of their association. 

    In association work, most as so busy chopping wood they do not have time to sharpen the axe. Letters with constructive criticism are listen too and acted on.

    That is also true in politics. Unhappy constituents  create change!

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    The inclusion or exclusion of children should be both a management decision and a marketing decision. 

    A smart marketing decision should be based of the size of the facility and the availability of space to have a separate play area for children with a supervisor to watch over them and to teach them skills, just like at the boy & girl scouts. Maybe a small room with games, or a computer (s)  for lessons or computer games.

    Some parents would pay extra for such a facility. Most facilities have a few young adults around and they could be employed as a baby sitter while the parents enjoy the adult side of the resort. The pool. and or the hight club in the evening.

    Having a program for children and/or young adults will most likely attract additional visitors and members. The increase in revenue stream would make for a better cash flow because the fixed costs most likely would be the same.

    Examples of these facilities can be found at Cypress Cove and Sunsport.

    Not all adults want to sit around with other adults, some which are old farts, negative complainers. Most are discussing prostrate problems and other current and past illnesses. One of the favorite is about their hemorrhoid operation.

    A favorite is. “Do you know who died?”

    Most adults have a lot of talents and skills that they would love to share with younger people if there was a facility and a program. That gives meaning to our lives.

    I don’t like to be around screaming children, either. Most scream because they are bored or want attention.

    I’m 81.5 years old and I do not want to be segregated by age. That is what ages us and eventually puts us into the deep sleep because we begin to feel useless and un-needed so we join the graveyard of useless bones.

    There is plenty of time for the adult life as we wait for the Viagra to kick in and the properly place the KY for easy access.

    But it is still hard to beat a family style Bar-B-Q to give us a meaning to this life and a chance to show off our super secret special Bar-B-Q sauce, as well as forget our aches and pains.

    Richard

  • YvonneGibson

    jasenj1 richard Mason So let me see. Freedom Fields Naturist Ranch in Canada has become an Adult Only Venue. After a great deal of thought and consideration for the welfare and safety of children. Being a working Ranch and having horses whom potentially could spook and hurt a child that was under foot now puts us on an undesirable list and we will be viewed as hypocrites. I would say not!! There is simply more reasons for adult only venues other than obviously your own perceptions of adults having fun = overt sexual behavior. Give me a break! I believe information being ready available in one location to be shared with others is a wonderful idea and helps naturists make an educated and informed decision as to where they want to spend their time, with or without their families. This post has taken this whole thing to a step where not even the nudists, naturists can agree to work together.

    Sad really.

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason I’m not advocating that AANR admit swinger clubs, but I did a simple Google search for “Florida swinger clubs” and came back with over a quarter million results. Here’s just one: http://ranch4play.com/
    I then did a search for “Florida BDSM clubs” and it returned over 400000 results. Here’s one: http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2012-03-08/news/our-reporter-goes-undercover-in-the-south-florida-fetish-scene/

    Then I did a search for “Florida nudist clubs” and the return was just a little over 300000 results.
    According to your interpretation of Florida law, all these swinger and BDSM clubs, which appear to outnumber nudist clubs by a more than two to one ratio, are illegal and everyone participating should be arrested.
    This place has their own hotel in Orlando: http://www.hedoevents.com/
    Nudists need to grow a backbone.

  • nudiarist

    jasenj1 richard Mason So basically children are being used as “human shields” against government regulation. That mere idea is despicable.

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason A ratings system would protect families and children.

  • nudiarist

    jasenj1 nudiarist YvonneGibson richard Mason So your idea is to do nothing, for AANR to simply maintain the status quo which means bleeding even more members and clubs, and continue to bury its head in the sand and hope that things get better. The nudist world has been afraid of its own shadow for decades, and early on that was justified because camps were raided and people were arrested. But perhaps you can tell me who has been arrested anywhere for “rubbing up against each other on a dance floor” – perhaps in Saudi Arabia, but certainly not in the United States where there are tons of swinger clubs and pornographic film production companies operating legally. We are living in the age of international nudity, where millions of people are putting naked photos of themselves on the Internet, oftentimes depicting graphic sex, and nudists are still worried about being arrested. I’m not saying that we should not be vigilant, but social realities dictate that we all need to stop hiding behind high fences and locked gates and come out of the nudist closet.

  • jasenj1

    richard Mason And I really wish AANR would/could publish that work more effectively. YNA’s site is a wealth of naturist information, providing news and articles on what’s happening in nudism and nudity in the broader culture. AANR’s website is stuck far in the past and is updated very infrequently. It gives the appearance of a dying organization.
    I understand that many dealings with public officials need to be done quietly for political reasons, but AANR communicates very poorly with the outside world.

  • jasenj1

    richard Mason
    Excellent points. AANR, as the national representative organization of “nudism” must appear to strongly – to the point of exclusively – support “family” nudism. Even if, or especially if, for the purpose of putting on a show for anti-nudity legislators.
    Privately, nudists can acknowledge that some adults prefer not to have children around because they are annoying, and some adults enjoy behaving sexually on the dance floor – like textiles do. But publicly, AANR has to fully support family inclusive nudity or the government will call us all a bunch of hypocrites and shut the whole thing down. You may not believe that, but as Richard has shown, that’s the way it is in Florida.

  • jasenj1

    nudiarist YvonneGibson richard Mason
    The question is, How sexy does an activity need to be to be considered “sexual conduct” in the eyes of the law/government/local DA?
    As Bill Clinton said, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman.” Oh, really?
    You may define “sex” as vaginal penetration by a penis, but I suspect the law would consider anything intended to stimulate an erection or the female equivalent – anything that induced “sexual” pleasure as lewd conduct. And that would include rubbing up against each other on a dance floor – just as people do every night in textile night clubs.
    Things cannot be brought out in the open because, in the eyes of the law, those things are illegal. AANR can do nothing but condemn those “things”.
    This is completely different than having an “adults only resort”, like an “adults only trailer park”, i.e. a place for old people to get away from annoying children. There, I think AANR is caught in a bind.

  • richard Mason

    AANR has always wanted children included for a very good reason. That reason has not been discussed.

    Nudism has always represented itself as a family form of recreation for two simple reasons.

    1. Legislators would be convinced that no parent would put their children into a nudist environment if it was dangerous  for the child and if their was open sexual behavior.

    2. By having children in a nudist resort a resort could not be labeled an Adult club.

    Once alcohol is sold in a landed facility that facility then comes under different laws.

    Government can very easily require that the patrons be clothed. Mere nudity has been ruled in a court case as to not be a form of expression. 

    Government officials always have had the nude recreation  by the short hairs and could, at anytime make nudity illegal. Lawyers are expensive and it was always wise to avoid going to court to protect nudity as a legal right.

    The case would most likely spin on the issue of what authority a local community of state has to enforce laws concerning health and safety.

    No adults only nudist resort has ever tested the authority of local or state law to regulate the nudity where alcohol is sold. They are currently operating under the radar. When that test case comes they will wish they had children around so they could claim to be a “Family Resort.”

    Times change and acceptable customs change also. Just because a group of adults want to drink and get nude does not mean that the “local Community Standards” test will not or never be required.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    AANR provides a multi-faceted  representation of the nudist recreation segment. They are monitoring legislation and responding to inquiries all the time. In Florida the president of AANR-Florida has been touring the state looking a sites for a designated beach. They worked with SFFB/FNA and a small group of naturists to establish a recognized naturist beach in St. Lucie County at Blind Creek. They showed up at Clay County to oppose their anti-nudity ordinance and support with us a lobbyist in Tallahassee.

    In Tallahassee during the legislative session we all find ourselves reading a lot of bills and making contact with legislators while working as a team with our lobbyists. That goes on from Sept. to April.

    AANR-FL recently paid a government affairs person to visit Lee County to meet with the sheriff to  put a stop to harassment at a traditional nude beach site.

    The work never ends.

    We also coordinated with the Naturst Society , NAC and NEF on bills. We all help people who get cited for nude sunbathing.

    The thing is that AANR costs about a dollar a week for a membership It is like an insurance policy or support of your fire department.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    When a business applies for a license they are what the courts call a “public convenience.”  Theey can have certain restrictions but they cannot avoid following the laws of the USA and the state and local statutes and ordinances.

    Read Florida Statute 800.03 on the issue of Lewd & Lascivious and indecent exposure. You cannot be nude in your backyard or even in your house if that nudity can be seen from the next door neighbor or from the street or sidewalk.

    In a resort the issue isn’t the nudity, it is the behavior while nude that triggers the law enforcement.

    Richard

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason

    At Haulover Beach we meet people from all over the Western Hemisphere, Europe and the Far East. Many plan to travel the state of Florida and beyond and we make recommendations for them to visit landed resorts We also make recommendations for our members and other South Florida naturists.

    On several occasions we received reports back from people who visited resort X and resort Y of open sexual activity in the pool, in the hot tub and in full view on the pool deck.  They were upset about what they witnessed and we had to assure them that that behavior is not acceptable at nudist resorts, so we do not recommend those resorts and longer.

    Those activities are now known knowns and they have to be condoned by ownership.

    In the issue of rating a resort, how do you rate those  resorts?  Should you even list then? Listing them is accepting what is unacceptable behavior.

    Richard

  • YvonneGibson

    SunCple YvonneGibson I agree it would be nice to have the information all in one area. It seems that maybe it is not going to be that way with AANR.

  • All-Nudist.com

    richard Mason I don’t believe that anyone suggested that people NOT be allowed to join AANR if they wish.  We DID suggest that folks would be better inspired to join if there was any incentive other than paying a few bucks less in grounds fees.  That isn’t exactly the way to build a movement.
    But since you brought it up, do you know where a list of AANR’s ‘Political Action’ successes can be found?  The handful from the past decade or so are no longer listed on their website.

  • vegascpl

    I thought of one other point that I think is reliant. According to the general manager of Caliente resort membership increased 25% within 6 months of the time they dropped their ANAR charter. Live Oak in Texas was about to go bankrupt before they dropped their ANAR charter. They are very successful now.

    Once again this is not about live sex act around the pool. This is simply a discussion about adult only resorts. The vast majority of people who go to adult resorts are not swingers. They simply don’t want to share the pool with a bunch of screaming kids. ANAR’s position seems to be that adults can’t be trusted unless there are kids!

  • All-Nudist.com

    CyndiMartinekPhillips All-Nudist.com SunCple Exactl, Cyndi.  AANR’s lack of interest in maintaining high standards for member clubs may be part of why it is failing.
    What good is an AANR endorsement that means nothing?  We DO know how AANR has operated in the past, and have had experience with member clubs that operated far from naturist principles.  AANR is a toothless self-promoter which had better find out how to deliver the goods or it will continue its decline.

  • SunCple

    YvonneGibson You are right.  The information is out there.  But the value for me comes from having all the information in one place without having to surf a bunch of resorts to find what I’m looking for.  If someone operates a lifestyle resort, and I am looking to stay at lifestyle resorts, it would be nice to see them all listed.  If I am trying to vacation with my kids and want only family friendly resorts, it would be nice to have them all listed as family friendly.  And then there are the resorts that kind of morph between day and night, family friendly by day, swingerish by night.  It would be just nice to know what you’re getting into.

    And I completely agree, no organization should dictate to you how you run your business.  Your dojo, your rules.

  • nudiarist

    YvonneGibson nudiarist richard Mason Open sex and felonies have been brought up in this thread, but nobody is really suggesting that sex acts and crimes should be any part of any nudist resort. All that Mr. Schroer proposed was a ratings system, which would bring things out in the open, as you advocate.

  • YvonneGibson

    nudiarist richard Mason Well said not all places in this world are designed as the other. Choices are up to the individual attending the venue. These choices should be an educated decision by responsible adults for both themselves and their children. I am in no way advocating that open sex and or felonies as some are suggesting be the norm and or accepted, however if these clubs wish to have theme nights that are not appropriate for children then having this out in the open is the proper thing to do.

  • YvonneGibson

    Although I do agree that informing ones members through a rating system would help eliminate the guessing game for people wishing to visit various venues. I personally will not be dictated to as to what I offer or do not offer at my establishment. With the world wide web readily available most information can be gathered from websites. If in doubt call the venue so that there will be no unwanted surprises.

    Respectfully and Naturally 
    Yvonne

  • vegascpl

    My wife and I are members of two nude resorts. One is an ANAR resort the other is not. We’ve been nudists our entire married life. When our children were younger we took them to nude resorts. However, now that we are older we prefer to be around adults. Our preference is adult only resorts. We don’t want to be around children in the hot tub at midnight! We all know that happens.

    This argument is not about swingers verses nudists. It’s about family nude resorts or adult only nude resorts. What is wrong with adults enjoying nude recreation without children? The problems is ANAR resorts to name calling when adults prefer an adult only recreation. There is little or no difference in what happens at ANAR resorts and non-ANAR resorts except that most people will have something on when they go to dances and restaurants.

    The next time you are hanging out in the pool at a nude resort just try asking what others think of ANAR. Here are some responses I know you’ll get. ANAR does nothing for me personally. The people who attend ANAR conventions are boring. They just sit around in meetings all day. Some will refer to ANAR as the ANAR travel club. They use our money to travel to Las Vegas. Then they discuss changing the name, and decide to table it. Then they discuss changing the color of the logo, and decide to table it. Then they talk about why nudists avoid ANAR conventions and conclude it’s the economy. 

    I do think that a national association for nudists is good. The problem with ANAR is that they are more focused on enforcing outdated rules than promoting nude “recreation!” ANAR continues to look backward not forward!

    ANAR is out of touch with it’s membership. I truly believe that ANAR would loose 2/3 rds of its membership if membership was not a requirement for membership in a resort.

    I read most of what Bill has written. He was like a breath of fresh air. I think he could have saved ANAR. Unfortunately I think the current President may well be putting the final nails in the coffin.

    It’s time for the ANAR board to start listening to it’s membership before it’s too late.

  • nudiarist

    pipermac5 According to the Cypress Cove website, one does not need to be a member to visit, so this makes it a public place. The venue also has different rules for singles and couples, which is likely discriminatory under law. Attorney Gloria Allred once went after Elysium Fields nudist resort in California for treating men differently than couples. Frankly I don’t know how nudist resorts continue to treat people differently on the basis of sex and/or marital status.

    In California, Desert Sun gets around discrimination laws by requiring each and every visitor to purchase a $10 membership fee. This allows them to discriminate based on age, sex or marital status. They do not allow anyone under the age of 18, and they state on their website that they no longer offer day passes or memberships to singles anymore. I’m sure they have good attorneys to justify these policies, especially since California has strong anti-discrimination laws.

  • jasenj1

    pipermac5 From the law Richard Mason posted:
    “A Public Place means any location frequented by the public, parks, beaches, business and commercial establishments, whether for profit or not for profit and whether open to the public at large or where entrance is limited by a cover charge or membership requirement or membership fee”

    It is so because the law defines it as so. We may disagree with the law, but that doesn’t matter when the cops show up and the cuffs come out. Some day some judges may disagree with the law and it may get overturned, but until then it is so.

  • pipermac5

    When did a private, members-only resort become a “public place”? When did behind the walls of a gated, private, members-only resort become a “public square”? 

    I frequent Cypress Cove, and the only time the general public is allowed on the grounds is during their “Open House”, but the general public doesn’t even have unlimited access to all areas, because they are restricted from entering the pool (nude) area unless they are will to join us in getting nude. First-time visitors are required to sign in at the office, show proper ID, which is copied, and fill out a visitor form. Their information is entered into the resort’s computer system, where it is permanently on file. If they want a tour, their are escorted by a staff member. 

    We “rate” things all the time, both consciously and sub-consciously, and that even includes things in our own homes. We also restrict our children’s access to certain parts of the house based on what is going on in that room or rooms. Just because we have sex in our bedroom, doesn’t mean that our bedroom is off-limits all the time. The whole house doesn’t automatically become X-rated just because the parents have sex once in a while, or even every day, and it doesn’t make the home any less “family-friendly”.

    If we morph that into a resort, and any sexual activity is restricted to appropriate time and place, where is the problem? If children are restricted from entering any areas where sexual activity “may” take place, does that make the resort any less “family-friendly”?

  • jasenj1

    nudiarist I said “maybe”. :)

  • jasenj1

    nudiarist richard Mason Getting “handsy” on a dance floor = sexual activity = lewd & lascivious conduct = indecent exposure = felony.
    You are absolutely correct in another post that the same behavior at a high school dance or textile night club would be equal sexual activity, but because of the nudity in a “public” place it becomes illegal. The nudity makes the difference in the eyes of the law.

  • nudiarist

    jochanaan StuffedTiger I agree, and we need to have the existing nudist organizations WORK TOGETHER, and prevent another fiasco like what happened at San Onofre Beach. Sometimes I think it would actually be good if either TNS or AANR ceased to exist so we could all support a single organization.

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason Please tell me exactly who is advocating felony behavior at a nudist resort or anywhere else. You are making an argument about something which nobody is proposing. I’ve said this before, but if you really care about nudism, you will take steps to prevent things like the child pornography convictions which involved two trusted individuals at Sunsport Gardens, and make an effort to end the illegal raffles and other games of chance which are happening throughout AANR and TNS affiliated resorts.

  • richard Mason

    All-Nudist.com SunCple

    I believe your comments on what Bill was researching in the way of a rating system are unfounded. In management, it is required to review options. To do that one must present cases. that does not mean you support or approve.

    Only the board can decide.

    The majority of visitors to a non-affiliated resort who belong to the resort by contract or otherwise and wish to enjoy the daytime amenities only, why should they not be given an opportunity to join AANR. After  all they the are the beneficiaries of AANR’s Political Action successes.

    Richard Mason

  • nudiarist

    jasenj1 nudiarist StuffedTiger Again, nobody is suggesting that AANR begin courting swinger and sex clubs. That’s not the intention of the ratings. At this point in time I see no real danger of nudist clubs being shut down, but there is a real possibility that someone will try and restrict them to people 21 and older. That’s the primary reason for ratings, as I see it, to PRESERVE family nudism. Right now clubs are already hosting adult events like lingerie dances, and people have a right to know exactly what is going on at nudist resorts before they decide to bring the kids.

  • richard Mason

    In any rating system by any national or local nudist/naturist organization, neither has the authority to give a rating that more or less OK’s felony behavior.

    If we look at the behavior issue from what the state statute law is currently and work back or forward from that law & its defining case law and move from there into the activities of the aforementioned nudist (NON) resorts the right thing to do unfolds, naturally, unto the objective person who is law abiding.

    The worst scenario that could happen is for a law enforcement agency, operating on a complaint, then place an undercover officer into the facility, witness a felony act, stage a raid where not only the participants are arrested for Lewd & Lascivious Behavior, but all the silent witnesses to the act are cited for accessories to a felony.

    Hello!!  In the land of the blind, the one eyed man may be king. But in the land of the viewers, there are no innocent people.

    It is not whether or not the above scenario will happen. It Will! It is just a matter of when.  It is too juicy an experience for a law enforcement agency to resist .Especially when they are fighting to increase their budget.

    Do you want to be there on that night.??

    If the religious and political right has paid lawyers prowling the countryside for communities to pro-actively sell they anti-nudity laws, don’t you think that eventually they will discover the one example they need to prove their case?

    The  outside lawyer in Clay County has billed the county for over $75,000 as of October and his time clock is still ticking.

    Richard Mason
    Haulover Beach

  • jochanaan

    StuffedTiger I beg to differ.  Yes, we are being attacked from those on the “outside” of the movement, including legislators; but we must be united to stand against them.  As Benjamin Franklin said, “We must hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately.”  This dispute between two acknowledged naturist leaders hurts no one but us.  And if, as seems possible, there are secrets and lies behind this firing, that hurts both us as naturists and the way others perceive us.  So this dispute is most definitely a danger to us.

  • jasenj1

    nudiarist StuffedTiger I don’t believe the fear is that people will be arrested, but that the resort will be shut down for allowing/encouraging such activities. If AANR is seen to be supporting such activities, it makes AANR an accomplice in the eyes of the government and those who lump nudism in with strip clubs & swingers.

  • nudiarist

    StuffedTiger I agree that nudist organizations need to constantly monitor legislation so that resorts don’t suffer from poorly worded laws.
    But I do think that the idea of being incarcerated for nudity at nudist clubs and resorts is hyperbole. We are living in an era of gay marriage, public nude events such as the WNBR, Bare to Breakers and the Fremont Solstice Parade, and people are virtually nude on the beach anyway. Marijuana is on the road to legalization everywhere. Swinger clubs operate nationwide and advertise on the Internet, and prostitution is legal just over the border in Canada as well as in Nevada. There are more and more opportunities for legal gambling worldwide, homebrewing is legal in all 50 states, and pornography is not only legal, it’s regulated by government! Do police departments even have vice squads anymore?
    What has become more and more unacceptable in today’s society is child pornography. As mentioned in another post, Sunsport Gardens in Florida recently had two of its male members, including the club’s photographer, convicted and jailed on child pornography charges. A ratings system would go a long way to protect families with children from attending clubs and events which are not kid friendly.
    Rating clubs will help to preserve family nudism, not destroy it. It’s time for truth and transparency, and we need to set aside the fear and paranoia of the 1940s and 50s when nudist campgrounds were raided over simple nudity.

  • nudiarist

    jasenj1 nudiarist richard Mason A high school prom is sexual activity. You want to regulate people misbehaving and having random sex? Then shut down all college dormitories.

  • nudiarist

    jasenj1 richard Mason It’s extremely presumptuous for anyone to claim that Bill Schroer, of all people, doesn’t understand the state of nudism today.

  • nudiarist

    StuffedTiger Nudism is already R rated (Restricted) because nobody under 18 is admitted without a parent. And how many AANR clubs which admit children let them hang around late at night when people are dancing and drinking? I know of one club which allows children to attend late night parties when people are wasted. Such events absolutely need to be adults only, hence the call for a ratings system.

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason Once again, you make a case for a clear ratings system on nudist clubs. Yes, communities which make laws regarding strip clubs sometimes word legislation so that it also can affect nudist clubs, and we must always be vigilant, but the danger I see to organized nudism lies more in issues involving children and gambling.
    Sunsport Gardens now has two former members serving time for child pornography. Homeland Security raided the place, and Morley was hauled out and questioned. If that didn’t close down the place, perhaps nothing will.
    Just about everyone who has attended a nudist resort or event has come across raffles and other games of chance which are used to raise money to improve facilities or purchase goods for members and guests. One club I know holds a casino night every year, and another club I know used money from gambling to add lights to a volleyball court.
    And just a couple of years ago, a club I know made the decision to have a raffle for a year’s membership, with tickets going for $50 each. No matter how you slice that idea, it’s illegal gaming.
    From my point of view, Bill Schroer wanted to install a ratings system not so much to add swinger and sex clubs, but to simply protect members and guests from events and resorts which might not be child friendly. 
    Yes, organizations are very important to nudism, but they need to be proactive on these issues and stop pretending that all nudist clubs are currently operating within the stated guidelines, because they are most assuredly not.

  • richard Mason

    The original intent of the organized and well funded religious/political groups was to ban nude night-clubs  aka strip clubs. When they passed laws and ended up in court, they learned that strip clubs were protected by private property rights combined with  1st Amendment Rights that defined  nude dancing as a form of expression.

    These groups then developed a program to have local communities ban mere nudity.

    By banning mere nudity, it forces strip clubs to put clothing on the dancers. The courts have ruled that a dancer with clothing can convey the same message as a nude dancer.

    Night clubs with clothed dancers experience a tremendous drop-off in customers and revenue and may become not profitable and have to close. Bingo. 

    The nudists market segment is just collateral damage to those that want to shut down the strip-joints.

    Remember these Hate Groups” need to have an enemy in order to generate support and income. Are we going to let a few with the needs of a dog-in-heat define who we are and lead us into the sights of a very successful anti-strip club group?

    One only needs to look at the US Supreme Court case; Barnes v. the Glenn Theater.

    In that case SCOTUS ruled that a local community can shut down any facility that has nudity if it claims that the nudity creates an adverse secondary effect on the community. Further, it states that a community does not have to prove there is a secondary effect.

    In his comment Justice Scalia states that in Indiana, you could have 60,000 nudists in a stadium and have no “complaining parties, and it would still be illegal to be nude in the stadium, based on that ruling.

    In the world of American and Florida jurisprudence, you only need ONE complaining party to trigger a police and a court action. Just one!

    To be forewarned is to be forearmed.

    Richard Mason
    Haulover Beach

  • StuffedTiger

    I was typing a longer comment but the system cut me off. I’ll try a shorter one.

    Neither Bill nor Bev are the problem. The problem is that real people are making real laws that will put us in jail for nudity as a way of reducing prostitution, drugs and violence. 

    I wonder how they can force us to declare that our bodies are other people’s sex objects unless we cover up. Well they are frightened people, and they vote. 

    It takes a great deal of money and effort from volunteers to stop that. Otherwise, it’s over. That’s politics. Elections matter. Laws matter. AANR matters.

    We need your help. We can be strong and consequential if we choose to. Disagreement means we care. We need to patch those up and find mutually beneficial ways forward. 

    If AANR wants to put in a rating system, there might be acceptablel options. 

    For example, AANR could rate other clubs and hotels that support similar events, not just AANR clubs, and use those ratings to position AANR clubs according to services provided, irrespective of nudity. We assume nudity is normal and cool, and rate the encouragement of prostitution as abnormal and unwelcome.

    The threat of an X rating might drive real compliance not only in our own clubs but in general as it has in other forms of entertainment. Why not shine a light on the real problem.

  • jasenj1

    richard Mason
    So the message is “behave yourselves or the government will shut us all down”. It doesn’t matter if some people are happy to participate in a raunchy dance club environment (even if the place behaves “G” rated 98% of the time). The government does not want that going on and they will shut down all nudist activity if AANR shows any accommodation for that sort of thing.
    Maybe that’s what Bill didn’t really understand.

  • richard Mason

    Maybe this conversation should be in a blog somewhere. We have drifted from the AANR/Schroer story.

    The issue is this. Nudist resorts in Florida, today, exist because myself, the SFFB/FNA Lobbyist and NAC and TNS and AANR convinced the state legislature in a committee meeting that there was no open sex going on in any nudist resort or beach. We killed the Anti-Nudity  Bill by one vote. 

    How about Caliente and Paradise Lakes and Riverboat changing their names to “A Lifestyle Resort.”  It would be truth in advertising.

    While I was in Clay County opposing their ordinance, Riverboat Naturist Resort was advertising a Saturday night foam party. 

    Had any Clay County Commissioner visited Riverboat’s website or Caliente in person their ordinance would not be on hold, but would now be law.

    Richard Mason
    Haulover Beach

  • richard Mason

    The following is what I wrote for NUSA SUN on the issue.

    From:: NUSA SUN
     December 2014 Issue
    From a Naturist Perspective by
    Richard Mason
    During the past year, I have written about the importance
    of Nudists conducting themselves in
    accordance with the principles of Naturist Etiquette.
    Naturists as a group should be self-policing on the issues
    of open sexual behavior in a nudist environment.
    There are new nudists who advocate for the need for nudist
    facilities to become more “avant garde” and join the world of the “Lifestyle.”
    Those of us that have been on the front lines in the
    government affairs trenches and have been fighting a tide of anti-nudity state
    bills and county ordinances for over 30 years have a different view.
    Current legislation, listed below has the same words as
    past anti-nudity ordinances and those that wish to practice sexual activity in
    a public place should read the ordinance.
    There is nothing wrong with recreational sex or the social
    relationships within the Lifestyle community. Just like in real estate, Its
    Location! Location! Location!
    The following was the edited down then ‘cut & pasted’
    from of the 10 page Clay County Ordinance. I took out the fun part, the 405
    words used to describe the human buttocks and how to measure it as well as how
    to determine if too much of the female breast was exposed and what a nipple and
    areola looks like.  Over 50 counties in
    Florida have adopted similar versions of this ordinance including your
    neighboring Hernando County. This is also the wording in bills introduced in
    Tallahassee in attempts to create a state law.
    Their motivation is obvious. Where there is nudity, there
    is sexual activity going on.
    I will let the Ordinance speak for itself.
    AN ORDINANCE BY THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF
    CLAY COUNTY, FLORIDA … 
    DECLARING PUBLIC NUDITY
    AND SEXUAL CONDUCT OR THE SIMULATION THEREOF
    UNLAWFUL
    WHEREAS, local governments may prohibit the exposure of
    certain body parts,(see Geaneas v. Willets, 911 F.2d 579 (11th Cir. 1990) and
    have successfully passed and defended regulations relating to public nudity;
    and,
    WHEREAS  Clay
    County, Florida  desires to regulate
    (and prohibit) public nudity and sexual 
    conduct, and the Board believes that public nudity and sexual
    conduct begets undesirable  behavior,
    and that adverse secondary effects such as, but not limited to, prostitution,
    sexual battery, assault and the spread of social communicable and sexually
    transmittable diseases may occur where nude and sexual conduct is permitted;
    and,…. has the potential for begetting, undesirable and
    unlawful behavior; and that sexual, lewd, lascivious and salacious conduct
    results in violation of law and creates dangers to the health, safety, morals
    and welfare of the public and those who engage in such conduct.
    WHEREAS, appearing nude in public places was a criminal
    offense at common law and
    A Public Place means any location frequented by the public,
    parks, beaches, business and commercial establishments, whether for profit or
    not for profit and whether open to the public at large or where entrance is
    limited by a cover charge or membership requirement or membership fee ..,
    hotels, motels, restaurants, night clubs,and meeting facilities utilized by,…
    social organizations, but do not include premises, or portions thereof such as
    motel or hotel rooms, used solely as a private residence,
     Sec. 2.4-3. (a) No
    person shall knowingly, intentionally or recklessly appear, or cause another
    person to appear nude or expose to public view his or her genitals, vulva,
    penis, pubic area, or buttocks or any simulation thereof.
     (d) No person or
    entity maintaining, owning, or operating a public place shall encourage, allow
    or permit any person to knowingly, intentionally or recklessly appear nude
    or to knowingly, intentionally or recklessly expose to public view his or her
    genitals, pubic area, vulva, penis, anus, or any portion of the buttocks or any
    simulation thereof at such public place. or …permit any person at such public
    place to engage in sexual intercourse, masturbation, sodomy, bestiality, oral
    copulation, flagellation, lap dancing, straddle dancing, any sexual act which
    is prohibited by law, touching, caressing, or fondling of the breasts,
    buttocks, anus or genitals or any simulation thereof….. in CLAY COUNTY, FLORIDA
    –end
    On October 13, myself, representing So. Fl. Free Beaches,
    Shirley Mason, BEACHES Foundation, Ralph Collinson AANR, FL and Bill Schroer,
    then Ex. Director of AANR National, appeared at the first hearing to oppose
    this ordinance. On October 28 at the 2nd hearing, Ralph Collinson
    and Ray Maury, Tallahassee lobbyist for both SFFB & AANR spoke in
    opposition to the ordinance and requested a delay. They were successful and the
    ordinance was delayed for five months.
    The point is that all the organizations opposing this
    ordinance were membership organizations. Only one individual nudist showed up
    in opposition and he was an AANR member.
    The lesson here is that membership organizatiosn are
    important. They are the only reason you can be nude today, at a nudist resort
    or beach in Florida.

    Writer’s Note:  Our nudist destiny may not be in our own hands.

  • SunCple

    jasenj1 nudiarist richard Mason Personally, I’m okay with resorts doing any of that, as long as they are open and up front about it.  I have no problem with those activities taking place as long as it’s published up front and I’m not forced to participate.  Because, as you say, it’s not the nudity that’s encouraging it, it’s normal human factors.

  • jasenj1

    nudiarist richard Mason But where is the line on sexual activity? You say “open sexual intercourse”. OK, what about when people are on the dance floor getting handsy? Or in the hot tub doing everyone knows what under the bubbles?

    As Richard mentioned, alcohol + disco + late night = sexual activity. That’s just the way it is – even at textile night clubs. At nudist resorts, all the parts are already exposed making the activity that much more overt.

    But alcohol sales is a profit maker. If a resort can make money selling booze to drunken partiers, should they? And should they be part of AANR?

    All-Nudist.com likened nudist resorts to campgrounds, but many are more than that, they are full resorts like a Beaches or Sandals – although at a much smaller scale. In my mind, the breaking point is the serving of alcohol in a dance club environment. That just begs for sexual impropriety.

    Again, even Disney cruises have adults only night clubs. Is there room in AANR for “adults only (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)” activities at certain times?

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason nudiarist Again, I don’t see anyone advocating open sexual intercourse in the “public square”, just common sense ratings to help people choose which clubs to visit. I don’t think there will be disagreement with anything you have said.

  • richard Mason

    nudiarist richard Mason

    There are many facets to the nudist/naturist recreational market segment. Maybe for each person it is a different paradox from a different perspective.

    I happen to be president of a Free Beach association. We are able to function in the market place and political arena based on memberships and some donations.

    I took us several years to convince locals that we were not pot smoking hippies of the Woodstock Generation and that we were just like the general population.

    Right now as I write this there are over 3 to 5,000 visitors to our designated beach. Haulover Beach. I report there at 4PM for Crime Watch duties as a volunteer..

    Over 1,5 million visitors  annually visit  Haulover’s naturist beach. When we set up our information table on the beach we attempt to sign up members, we sign up few..

    One of the reasons that we don’t is that to quote:” I don’t want my name on any records that I have visited a nude beach.”

    Why is that? That attitude exists because nude recreation has a connotation that the nudity  is about sex.

    Half or more of the existing membership of our organization are in the closet on their nude recreation choice. That probably is the same in all nudist groups.

    If that is the situation, and if any national organization becomes a co-supporter  of a nudist resort that embraces open sexual activities and the media presents that to the public, what do you think will happen to the organized nude membership associations? The cancellations of memberships? 

    Further, if nude recreation gets a public reputation as a free-sex driven segment, what do you suppose will happen to all those that are considering trying mere nude recreation?

    When I mention an adult resort, I was referring to a place that did not want children.

    However, there is no reason that an adult nudist resort could not operate within the same rules that a non-nudist resort does.

    We all know that many people seek their extra sexual activities by joining a country club or even a church. But, they don’t have sex within the facility and in the open.

    There is no reason why  any national nudist association should not seek individual membership from people that visit an adult style nudist resort. Most people know how to behave, particularly when they know the boundaries in advance.

    The point is that nude recreation can exist in this society and be an acceptable market segment as long as individuals sexual choices are kept in the privacy of their residences or hotel rooms. Not in the public square.

    Florida law defines the public square as any location on private property that is open to the public. Even if a private club.

    No respectable nudist wants to be eye-candy for a voyeuristic alcohol consuming paying guest at a faux nudist resort.

    Richard Mason
    Haulover Beach

  • nudiarist

    richard Mason That’s all well and good, Richard, but I don’t think anyone is proposing that AANR begin accepting clubs which allow people to engage in sexual intercourse out in the open. Certainly the laws you mention are of paramount importance on this issue. I’ve never been to the clubs which market to swingers, but I know of a couple who visited one last year and they were astounded at how much goes on after dark right out in the open. It’s my understanding that one of the clubs was indeed under investigation a little while ago, but I don’t know how that turned out.
    I’ve been in the nudist world for nearly a decade now, and I’ve seen day visitors with erections, spread legs at poolside, single males using the grounds for hooking up, couples having sex in their cars and in hammocks, etc. Generally these people were kicked out, and I support that.
    My understanding of a ratings system would be to allow families to find clubs which cater to children, and allow couples to choose venues where children are not allowed. After hours ANY party can get a little out of hand, whether it’s at a private home, a college dorm, at an office. I’ve seen people dancing naked and falling down because they were pretty drunk, with an 8 year old child present, at about 10 PM. The parents, and the management, should have stepped up and put the kid to bed well before the drinking started.
    If a club wants to have sexy Halloween parties, lingerie dances, workshops on polyamory and tantric sex, or else anything of that nature, then these activities should be rated as adults only. 
    From my point of view, being honest and open about the specific nature of clubs and activities will STRENGTHEN family nudism by allowing people the ability to choose a club which fits their needs. Parents don’t want to take their kids to clubs where people are drunk around the pool, having adult conversation, and having wild, sexy dances.
    There’s nothing wrong with a little sexiness. Nudism has continued to shun and deny such behavior, while at the same time society has moved from Victorian prudishness to a much more open, sexually expressive society. 
    Actually, you clearly make the argument for ratings when you say that “Should all nudist resorts be blamed for what goes on at these clubs…it will result in the closure of all nudist facilities in the state”. That is precisely why we need to be specific about what is going on at AANR clubs and why they are not sex clubs, and why children are safe. The nudist world had a scare about a decade ago when Mark Foley took aim at the presence of children at Florida resorts, and ultimately the storm which ensued caused the end of youth camps in Virginia. THERE IS NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL MODEL FOR NUDIST RESORTS, and it’s time to admit that some of these places and events are simply not appropriate for anyone under 21.

  • richard Mason

    The rating of nudist clubs..

    What we have in Florida is a two to three  landed nudist resorts that started out as nudist resorts and have morphed into nudist resorts and more.  They basically were able to develop quickly by having access to one of the most exclusive mailing list in the USA for free. A list that could have sold commercially for $200 to $500 per thousand addresses for one time use.

    Once established they decided to change their business plan because of the profit in alcohol and the willingness of the voyeur public to pay to see other people nude and to become part of an evening of free expression.

    However, they are not “real” nudist resorts if they allow open sexual conduct in a public place which has been reported, they do.

    What you have is two to three resorts that have piggybacked on the “nudist” brand which will in the end jeopardize “real” nudist resorts existence.

    If a landed facility wants to become a swinger’s club, that is fine, but be honest and make it a private swingers club and follow the state laws in that business model. Those laws require membership and No Sale of Alcohol. Members bring their own booze and the drink set-ups are either free or charged.

    If an nudist resort wants to be adult only, that is their right, but it should not allow in a public place sexual conduct that should be confined to the private rooms.

    The existing two or three open sexual activity resorts are actually operating outside the intent of Florida Laws. Further, they need to read the Clay County Ordinance as well as the same ordinance that exists in over 50 Florida Counties.

    Should all nudist resorts be blamed for what goes on at these clubs, not only will there be a state-wide anti-nudity law but it will result in the closure of all nudist facilities in the state.

    If any nudist organization condones open sexual activity at a resort, that will blemish the reputation of anyone exposed as being a nudist and will lead to the people cancelling their memberships and the avoiding the practice in the United States.

    Richard Mason
    Haulover Beach

  • richard Mason

    Jordan:

    Thank you for a well researched and balanced article on the AANR — Bill Schroer issue.

    I first met Bill Schroer at Haulover Beach during his visit to our designated naturist beach. He also attended out Beach Ambassador Training Program.

    I was impressed with Bill’s enthusiasm for nude recreation. Also, his dedication to the cause.  I say the “cause” because with Free Beach people we are motivated by the “cause.” That is an energy that is usually lacking in “club” naturists because of the difference in geography. The guaranteed site vs, the threat  to public beach sites.

    We at SFFB/FNA have an excellent relationship with AANR-Florida and have been working with them on the public lands issue and also share a paid lobbyist in Tallahassee. This cooperation was witnessed this year in our cooperative effort in working with a SFFB/FNA member in the development of a new “Free Beach” now recognized at Blind Creek Beach on Hutchinson Island in St. Lucie County (Fort Pierce, Florida) 

    Bill Schroer attended the first “Beach Day” at Blind Creek Beach to show support by AANR-National.

    Anyone familiar with membership organizations that rely on paid membership revenue understand that to earn membership, an organization must be doing positive actions to preserve existing nudist rights as well as expanding those rights. That includes protecting landed clubs and resorts as well as the public lands issue.

    The night before Bill Schroer was terminated, he joined myself as president of SFFB/FNA, Shirley Mason Ex. Dir. BEACHES Foundation and Ralph Collinson, president of AANR-Florida at a public hearing in Clay County, Florida to oppose a proposed county public nudity ordinance. 

    Clay County is 350 miles north of Miami and 170 miles north of Kissimmee. FL.

    This was new energy for AANR-National and his understanding that to gain and keep members you must be an advocate on their behalf.

    The termination of Bill Schroer was a great disappointment to me, personally and to our members. I had assumed that it was a case of a new President of an organization wanting to install there own person in that position.

    However, from my corporate background, I believe that you must have the most competent person in each position and work through any personality issues.

    The termination is still a mystery to me. However, I can understand why the board voted the way it did.  It must support the president and give them the authority to make changes. To have voted otherwise would have undermined the president.
    Organization do what organization do!

    That being said, their vote is not a judgment of Bill Schroer at all. 

    I believe the dismissal of Bill was a huge mistake. I believe if the new president had taken the time to work with Bill and observed his professionalism, she would have made a different decision. 

    However, The problems of a declining membership is still with AANR like it is with all membership organizations, both fraternal and social. 

    But, organizations  like AANR are important to the future of nude recreations. Just like the Naturist Society, BEACHES Foundation and YNA and our organization. 

    Your article clarified the AANR-Bill Schroer  issue.  I for one never believed any of the rumors and judged Bill to be a man of high moral standards and a professional businessman as well as a naturist.

    Up until recently, I have not been an AANR member for over 20 years. Our organization, SFFB/FNA is not affiliated with AANR. That being said, we have never been anti-AANR and have advised people if they wished to join AANR to do so through a landed resort or direct. 

    Richard Mason, President
    South Florida Free Beaches/
    Florida Naturist Association
    Haulover Beach
    Affiliated with the Naturist Society
    http://www.sffb.com
    Phone: 305 620 7090

  • SunCple

    nudiarist SunCple This is actually an excellent point.  My wife and I personally like to go to adult-only resorts.  Not because we’re expecting sexual activity, but because we’re expecting a quiet, restful environment.  Maybe the joyful sound of children playing is music to the ears of some but when we’re on vacation, we want peace, quiet, restoration.  That’s hard to do when there are kids splashing you and running around the are in which you are trying to meditate.

    We love kids!  We also love to get away from kids!  A ratings system that said, “This is an adult-only resort” versus “this is an adult-lifestyle resort” would be very helpful when planning vacations.  Right now, simply having the AANR stamp of approval doesn’t tell me much.

    Otherwise, I am completely neutral on AANR.  I myself am a member of TNS simply because I enjoy the magazine and I get the same discount at my local resort.

  • OBISerious

    As a Canadian and a member of FCN, I have no dog in this fight.

    However, I can share my personal experiences.

    My girlfriend and I decided to try a weekend at a naturist club.  We booked two weekends at separate clubs to try them out.  It turns out that one was mandatory nudity while the other was clothing optional. If we had known, we would have booked both weekends at the mandatory nudity club and skipped the clothing optional location. 

    My point is that a rating system does not have to be about which is better.  Only about what the rules are.  (One could call them “services”)

    And the point about “sex clubs” not belonging in a naturist / nudist umbrella organization is logical.  However, if said naturist / nudist umbrella organization is struggling for membership, maybe opening up the umbrella a little more is an idea worth investigating.

    On a separate but related point, the words “Nude Recreation” in themselves do not limit the perception of activities.

  • CyndiMartinekPhillips

    All-Nudist.com SunCple AANR has had swing friendly clubs as members for as long as they have existed and did not treat clubs equally in this aspect, kicking one club out for what another one has done for decades. They turned a blind eye to what went on at Paradise Lakes because they could not afford to lose their largest source of income so AANR is the one that considered money more important than nudism.

    There is obviously a lot you don’t know about AANR and how they have acted in the past, allowing clubs as members when they should not have been. The nightmare that was Natura was a great example of this. AANR ignored the people that lived at that park just to make a few bucks.
    Being an AANR member has never meant family naturism, that’s for sure.

  • nudiarist

    JCWls Absolutely right.

  • nudiarist

    pipermac5 All-Nudist.com It’s always worth reviewing Cec Cinder’s definition of nudism, as follows: 
    1. It must be a group activity. Solo nakedness, however pleasant, is not nudism. 
    2. It must be mixed-sex. The YMCA swimming pool on Thursday night is not nudism. 
    3. It must be complete. No “le minimums”, which subtly – or perhaps blatently – contradict the entire nudist spirit. 
    4. It must be social. Not religious fanatics emulating Adam and Eve. 
    5. It must be self-conscious. Stone Age tribes going completely naked in the jungles of the Amazon or the highlands of New Guinea are not nudists. They just “are”.

    Take note that Cinder does not mention age. It’s still nudism if it’s all adult participation and no children. This whole idea that it “must” be wholesome and family friendly is an invention, although I wholeheartedly agree that family nudism is an important part of nudism in general, but certainly not a requirement.
    The one point with which I disagree is number two. I see no reason why a men or women cannot enjoy nudism in single sex groups, but I do agree that in a world full of airbrushed images it’s extremely important for men and women to be nude together in social settings in order to normalize the human body and reduce the objectification so prevalent in society.
    One other note. Cinder’s book tells the history of the modern nudist movement which began in Germany in the late 1800s, and he ends with the free beach movement and the creation of The Naturist Society. In the early pages of the book, Cinder mentions that there have been many different movements similar to nudism throughout history, and that the current state of clothes-free recreation is likely only one more variation on what has come before.
    It’s hard for some narrow-minded people to see that society has changed dramatically from Victorian times until now, and to insist that nudism adhere strictly to tenets formed out of reactions to a brutal and stifling industrialized society over 100 years ago is reactionary.

  • JCWls

    I had been a member of AANR (then ASA) since the mid 1980’s.  My wife and I let our membership lapse at about the time that Erich Schuttauf left as Executive Director.  I felt that the organization wasn’t really keeping with the times and was very disillusioned when they appointed a NON nudist to the Executive Director’s position.  When that gentleman left, and Mr. Schroer came aboard, I thought the AANR was showing some positive progressive thinking.  His work with SFFB and TNS looked very promising.  That all came to a halt in October with the dismissal of Bill Schroer.  Repeated e-mails to AANR have gone unanswered, and the entire scenario is too cloudy for me. Personally, we do not like the reputation of some of the resorts and do not frequent them because of their atmosphere.  But if that’s the way they want to be, fine.  A ratings system, endorsed by AANR and possibly TNS would greatly help those that are new to nudism or to those that are unaware of the atmosphere at some clubs.

  • pipermac5

    All-Nudist.com You do NOT speak for everyone in the nudist community, nor do you have the right to force your ideals on everyone else. If some nudists enjoy “adult recreation”, that is their right, and it doesn’t make them any less “nudists”.

  • nudiarist

    All-Nudist.com I am the “sexploitation Tumblr guy” of which you speak. My Tumblr embraces many aspects of body freedom and is decidedly NOT strictly “in the name of naturism” as you falsely claim. My blog is here http://nudiarist2.tumblr.com/, and if you bothered to take the time to read the description you would find these words: “This Tumblr is a collection of mostly nudist photos, erotica and fine art nudes, incorporating issues about censorship, sex positivity, and body freedom in general”. So basically I have “rated” my blog so that anyone visiting gets full disclosure.

  • nudiarist

    SunCple A ratings system will go a long way to PRESERVE FAMILY NUDISM, and not simply watch it fade away. There are several clubs, like the Terra Cotta Inn, which are already adults only, not because of overt sexual activity taking place, but because couples want to go to resorts and be nude without other people’s children running around the pool. It’s the same idea as going to a fine restaurant and having your meal ruined by a screaming kid in a high chair. Nothing against children, but there is a time and a place – they don’t belong at office parties, bars, pool halls, dance clubs, or any other place where adults gather to smoke, drink and engage in adult conversation.
    A ratings system will allow families to pick and choose nudist resorts and campgrounds based upon their own needs. Those opposed to ratings only look at one side of the issue, that it would merely sanction adults only clubs, but the reverse is also true, that it would strengthen and preserve family nudism.
    At historic Lupin Lodge in Los Gatos, California, the management was allowing local BDSM and fetish groups to use the grounds for their meetings and events. At first AANR denied that anything was going on and tried desperately to cover it all up, such as asking the groups not to mention the name Lupin Lodge on the Internet. This was tantamount to everyone merely burying their heads in the sand on the issue. Lupin owner Glyn Stout finally admitted to allowing these groups, referring to the “Human Fox Hunt” as equal to “outdoor improv theater” and professing proudly that most Lupin members were not even aware that this fetish event was going on. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/naturists2/conversations/topics/39
    It is my personal belief that if any club is hosting bondage or fetish groups on the grounds that every member and visitor has a right to know. This is a full disclosure issue, first and foremost, and that is the intention of a ratings system. So AANR can keep on losing clubs like Lupin Lodge, or it can become open and transparent about what exactly is going on at their affiliated clubs.

  • nudiarist

    All-Nudist.com SunCple This shows a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of AANR and its affiliated clubs. The national organization has little or no control over the independent clubs. AANR does not own any clubs – hell, it’s even selling it’s building in Kissimmee, and is apparently not actively seeking a replacement for their terminated Executive Director.
    AANR no longer has any power because it’s losing clubs left and right, from Caliente and Paradise Lakes in Florida to Desert Sun and Lupin Lodge in California. I looked into forming my own travel club. First, I would have to pay $100 for an application fee. Then, in order to become an official club, I would need at least 15 members willing to pay for AANR membership, which now costs $58 for an individual and $93.50 for a couple, so we’re talking about nearly $1000 minimum just to get started.
    AANR exists because of its “100% clubs” which mandate that all local members MUST also belong to AANR. Many people resent this sort of forced compliance – it would be like buying a gun and being forced to join the NRA, or turning 65 and being forced to join AARP.
    AANR is a broken business model, and Bill Schroer was taking steps to make the correction and save the organization. AANR is failing itself, its clubs and its members RIGHT NOW.

  • nudiarist

    SunCple You have the right idea about the ratings system – that you have a right to know exactly what is going on at nudist resorts so you can feel comfortable taking yourself and your family for a visit. Did a ratings system kill family films? No, it actually allowed Disney and other companies to thrive because the system introduced in the late 1960s gave people INFORMATION that they could use to pick a movie to see.

  • jasenj1

    All-Nudist.com
    You say “his own agenda” as if others do not share it. Clearly if there are resorts offering a nightclub atmosphere then others share his view that nudism need not be 100% child-friendly. Even Disney cruises offer nightclubs with drinking, pounding music, and a decidedly un-family-friendly atmosphere.
    Is there a place in nudism for adults to act like they do in textile nightclubs? Drinking to drunkenness, dancing suggestive/lewdly, and otherwise behaving hedonistically?
    Naturism certainly has its foundations in people who would find such a situation abhorrent. Many naturist pioneers were pastors and naturism was a way to lessen the hedonistic impulses, to draw closer to creation, and to make people “better” and healthier.
    Does that still hold true? I think at places like Bare Oaks in Canada, it certainly does, where they put “ethical naturism” front and center. But AANR stresses the “recreation” side of nudism. Nudity seems primarily another clothing option, the philosophical and moral component has been suppressed.
    I think Bill’s rating proposal continues that slide away from “naturism” and toward “nude recreation”. Does that reflect where nudism in the USA is or is going? Does AANR want to be an organization representing that sort of libertine nudism? AANR recently sponsored a costume party at Fantasy Fest in Key West, a very libertine atmosphere and not at all in holding with traditional naturism. Was that an aberration? Or does it represent the type of clientele AANR wants to court?
    Lots of very hard questions for AANR to address.

  • All-Nudist.com

    SunCple AANR affiliation should mean that you needn’t worry about that; it simply doesn’t happen if AANR is doing its job.  Anything less and AANR is failing you.  Why else does AANR affiliation exist? Just to save $5 off grounds fees?

  • jasenj1

    Thank you for the hard work. I’m not close enough to AANR politics to know what kind of leader Bev is or what her vision is for AANR. But if she did violate AANR policies in the way Bill was terminated, that does not reflect well on her or the organization that they allowed the termination to stand.

    My hope is either that AANR gets its act together and becomes an effective organization, or self-destructs quickly so some other group can rise from the ashes.

  • SunCple

    For my part, a ratings system would not help me figure out how much sex I can get away with… it would help me figure out how much sex I could get away from.

  • All-Nudist.com

    Well done article, mainly apologizing for a man with his own agenda for American social nudism.  We, of course, are adamantly opposed to a ‘rating system’ based on sexual activity rather than on services and resources, as all Textile campground referral services do. (http://www.woodalls.com/)  Somehow, Textiles are more interested in what’s available instead of how much overt sex they can get away with!
    But  are nudists more interested in how much sex they can get away with?  Really?  Is THAT how we decide where to go?  Don’t we assume that any AANR affiliated venue is essentially the same, sharing the same nudist philosophy as represented by AANR and every other major nudist/naturist organization in the world?
    This whole ‘rating system’, long promoted by a former blogger and now sexploitation Tumblr guy who exclusively promotes pictures of (mostly) naked women in the name of ‘naturism’, is utter nonsense within a community which recognizes that overt sexual activity and social nudism don’t mix.  Therefore, even the ‘ranking’ of nudist/naturist/ venues based on the level of sexual activity is anathema to the entire concept of mainstream social nudism.

    Whatever reasons Mr. Schroer was dismissed for, anyone who has read his words understands that he also has a very skewed idea of mainstream social nudism, and he apparently feels comfortable using that context to make money in any way possible for the organization that hired him to do so.  Happily, they had enough balls to kick him out before he could do much more damage to our cause, or AANR!
    Kudos to AANR!

  • All-Nudist.com

    SunCple NO AANR sanctioned club should require a ‘ratings system’ other than for quality and services.  AANR affiliation should ensure that any AANR venue meets the same standards we expect from ANY proper social nudist venue.  Same rules for all.
    Does Woodall’s camping guide rate on sexual activity?  Why should nudist camps be different?  Just because we’re nude?  http://www.woodalls.com/
    Since when does sexual levels of activity have ANYTHING to do with social nudism?  Do Textile camping organizations rate campgrounds on that basis?
    If you want naked sex, go to a sex club, not a naturist camp/resort.  It’s very easy to determine which is which with a little research.  NONE of the wrong ones should be AANR affiliated, let alone be accepted and rated as to how sexy they are.  Why is this even a question?
    Bill Schroer doesn’t understand that, unfortunately.  The rest of his internal political problems with AANR aren’t of great interest to us, we understand internal politics.  He DID support relaxing standards, and if that was part of his ousting, that’s good enough for us.
    Too bad; we supported him from the start, and are very disappointed that AANR money meant more to him than the philosophy of social nudism.
    AANR has properly refuted his ideas, and we applaud that.  The next step is to purge those clubs/camps/resorts that fail to follow mainstream nudist/naturist ideals.  Make AANR membership MEAN something other than simply to get $5 off a visit to a venue.

  • pipermac5

    Thank you Jordan for doing the research and legwork on this. Far from answering the many questions we have, this begs even more questions. Some that I can think of are:

    Was this a “clash of the Titans”? 

    Was this a clash between two people with very different ideas about how AANR should be run?

    Was this a purge of the “old-guard”? 

    Did Beverly dump Bill because he was hired by her predecessor?

    Why hasn’t AANR been more forthcoming about this?

    Does Beverly believe that she is above accountability to the members of AANR?

    Do individual members no longer matter to AANR?

    Is AANR becoming the American Association of Nudist Resorts?

    I only met Bill very briefly at a nude bowling event in Kissimmee this last fall, and when I spoke with him, he encouraged me to renew my lapsed membership. I might have renewed this next year, but now that this has happened, I can think of much better uses for my money.

  • GBSmith

    Good reporting.  My concerns have been addressed so now it’s time for AANR to step up and explain itself.  My renewal comes up in 2015 and it’s something I’m going to have to think about.

  • nudiarist

    Good effort, but unfortunately you have just raised more questions which will increase speculation. Personally I’ve been calling for a ratings system for years, and AANR’s reluctance to change might well be key to the organization’s downfall. Certainly I don’t wish them to fail, I desperately want to see them succeed, but they are selling their headquarters, and to my knowledge there has been no effort to find a new Executive Director. Whatever is going on with AANR, the silence from them is deafening. Aside from an occasional electronic newsletter, there appears to be little or no effort at public relations, and without some sort of outreach to attract new members, the downward spiral will continue. For the first time in 8 years, I am no longer a member.

  • Lamdba

    Please continue to do more pieces like this. Your investigative articles are always well-researched, and I love the way you try to keep an open-minded perspective.
    I get the feeling, though, that there’s still more to this story than we’re seeing; I’m waiting to see where this goes from here.

  • SunCple

    I would love to see a ratings system.  I would love to see all clubs included in AANR’s guide.  That way *I* can decide which club I want to go to and which I do not.  I hope they incorporate Bill’s ideas.  And I hope the board takes action against anyone who violated any bylaws.

  • jochanaan

    This is the stuff of mystery novels. On its face, there seems to be no good reason for Ms. Price to have fired Mr. Schroer–which suggests, to borrow a clause from author Piers Anthony, that there might be a bad reason. Was Mr. Schroer getting too close to finding out nasty things about AANR, or about Ms. Price specifically?

  • NotanlinesGuy

    First off, it sounds to me as if Bill was trying to make some changes that needed to be made, including the rating system. If there were a rating system, then many more clubs could be members and pay member dues further strengthening the Nudist cause. I personally think there’s nothing wrong with including nudist clubs that allow mild adult content. I also believe that AANR does not properly represent nudists the way they used to and needs a lot of restructuring if they are to survive. Personally think that the young naturist group is doing much more in a much more positive direction and AANR and YNA should be able to coexist and help each other. We are often too fragmented which does not help the overall nudist cause.

  • AlanChristensen

    Thanks for posting this article. I appreciate all the time and effort that went into it. The decision to let Bill go was disappointing to me personally. I met him at the AANR Northwest convention and he impressed me with his ideas. AANR lost a good man.